Outdoor CCTV problem

Cheap equipment, or not enough light. Take your pick, both are probably correct.

What equipment are you working with?

Simple, any outside video motion is NOT stable, period.

Use exterior rated motion detectors and input triggers to a quality DVR, problem solved.

Les

G. Morgan wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@Osama-is-dead.net:

Yes, the gear was relatively cheap: On the other hand, it is up-to-date technology, so perhaps it's not all bad. It's a 4-channel DVR/receiver that records to an SD card, and the 12v cameras have 30 LED's. All made in China (I think) and purchased on eBay. I actually ended up with two very similar DVR/receivers, which could be helpful, because using one alone, I have awful trouble picking up four cameras. There is a lot of interference and usually one out of the 4 cameras isn't picked up. Perhaps I should try wiring the cameras to a DVR (luckily the cameras have wire outputs) - because this wireless setup seems very problematic indeed.

JakeD

G. Morgan wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@Osama-is-dead.net:

I have these two bits of kit, and yes, they were relatively cheap:

I'd probably get better results with a wired sytem would I? I suspect a lot of my problems are to do with wireless reception.

Each of teh receiver/DVR;s has trouble dealing with 4 cameras, despite claiming to be 4-channel systems. They can deal with three much better, but they have trouble picking up all 4 cameras - even during daylight.

JakeD

dude, you're going to have to start over if you want a working system. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard of people getting burned; I'd have a dollar or two.

That is 802.11g -- 802.11n is 10x faster.

You're better off with hardwiring using CAT5 and install IP cams or video baluns for analog cams.

Unacceptable

Always take what they say the range is, then divide by 3. They lie!

snipped-for-privacy@Osama-is-dead.net:

All I can say Jake is ....... you shoulda come here FIRST.

Many times, a person will come to me and tell me that they bought "this great camera system on line" and they tried to install it and they can't get it working. Depending upon what they bought ..... very rarely will I take the job. You see, I've learned that once I touch the equipment .... and something goes wrong .... the equipment very quickly becomes "my system".

As it is .... CCTV equipment has become very popular and companies are making it very available to the general public. The problem is ..... the general public has no idea of the amount of detail that must be put into choosing a camera system. Therefore they only key in on on the hype, razzel dazzel and glitter that the camera companies advertise with making it seem like it's a "no brainer" .

(Because you didn't know)you probably never looked at whether the cameras were REALLY out door cameras, or what's the smallest amount of light necessary to acutally see something of value (ie lux value), back lighting compensation? What camera view could use 350 lines of resolution versus 540 lines? Is it a day night camera? Why is it better if it is? 1/4 inch or 1/3 inch CCD? Standard, wide angle or telephoto lens? ...... and there are probably 20 more spec's that I could list, depending upon your application. In addition, off the shelf wireless products are usually designed to work on "open" frequencies. That is ..... frequencies that are used by thousands of devices. Telephones, door bells, dog collars, or on non protected network frequencies with very little transmitting power. Whether you realize it or not, video takes a lot of bandwidth to transmit and even some professional wireless system have their problems.

To make what you have now ..... work, is going to take trial and error movement of cameras and even then it will only result in unreliable and intermittant performance. Hard wiring will make a difference but the quality of the video will be minimal. It may be that it will be acceptable to you but if you were to see it beside even a low end professional system, you'd be amazed at the difference.

Please excuse me but ..... unfortunately, you're coming here with a pair of sissors and you want to know if we can tell you how you can use them to cut your lawn. Best advice I can give you is to do some thorough research and then go out and buy a lawn mower. Or ..... pay someone to provide you with the appropriate tool to do the job. As I'm sure you know, professionals get paid to do what they do because they' have the experience, done the homework and the trial and error. You just didn't dig deep enough to find out what you didn't know about CCTV. Sorry!

G. Morgan wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@Osama-is-dead.net:

Thanks.. I thought about using IP cams, and storing the footage on a web server somewhere, but then I realised how easy it was for someone to cut the phone line from the property. I'm not in an area where wireless internet is very reliable, so I decided to aim for a wireless system so I could store the video locally, off premises, where the DVR couldn't be located by following the wires. Little did I realise how problematic this wireless system would be.

I assumed that 0 Lux meant no light - which sounded good to me!

The 7 mtrs is quite truthful, in this case although, at 7 mtrs, things get a bit less well-lit by the IR, and might not trigger movement activation..

Jake

Jim wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@c1g2000yql.googlegroups.com:

OK - thank you for the input. Agreed, I didn't research *all* of the specs you mentioned, in detail, but I was in a hurry to get something rigged up quickly, with no time to do lenthy research. I'm also on a budget, so I couldn't buy on the "you get what you pay for" premise. It's possible that I will end up buying an entirely different setup, but for now, I'll have a go at optimising what I've got - for example by following your suggestions. The daytime performance is OK (or will be, if I can get all 4 cameras to register correctly by the receiver). I'm mainly puzzled as to why nighttime wireless performance is so terrible. Perhaps if I instal extra IR lights it would improve things...

Jake

Yes, or visible light would be better.

and basically IR sucks.

Would you post a list of 'considerations' to take into account?

Especially be useful if you were to add the 'minimum' requirements, or why the spec is important to a 'self installer'. List examples

1. Line resolution, where 360 to 400 sucks, but 540 to 600+ will fulfill expectations?
2. Wireless: how to discern the channel spec to make certain ALL the channels will work TOGETHER! Are their effective add on modules?
3. LUX requirement: you said 0 LUX, which implied [to me] no light is required, the cameras have their own. I've seen 30ft and40 ft range cameras.
4. size of CCD
5. Lensing/angle of view.

I've been wading through specs for a while and keep tripping over features I do NOT care about...internet images, 3G phone images etc.

I need a way to view around our property 24/7 while occupying the property. and don't say go out and look, because there are too many blind spots.I need a way to have motion detector(s) go into alarm, and switch the view of the TV system away from entertainment to the camera catching the motion. and then be able to switch back. The idea of digital recording in the manner of the TV entertainment system does now would be ideal. I've gone through 10 VHS tape machines, and mechanical reliability sucks.

Is this a good 'starting' system that removes much of the decision processes?:

On Nov 16, 3:37=A0pm, Robert Macy wrote: Without spending too much time in decipering spec's for you here's what I see:

The higher the resolution, the better the picture. However, it doesn't make sense to buy just cameras with 600 lines of resolution but have a DVR and monitor that can only produce 400 lines. ( and really this defines the answer to most of the rest of your questions)

I think it was you that I mentioned it to before ..... wireless "anything" is part magic. There's no predicting how well it will work in any given installation. There are to many outside factors that can cause a problem. That is the reason that most professionals will not use it. You can't know if it's going to work until you try to set it up.

The spec's regarding Lux capability are muddled for the most part .... I suspect most times on purpose by the manufacturers. Especially where infrared lighting comes into the picture. There are cameras that can see a news paper headline at 30 feet on a starlit night without infrared. Probably in the area of .000001 lux. Very expensive cameras. That's why infra red lighting is predominent. It's less expensive. When using cameras with infrared lighting, the spec's will tell you what the viewing range is at night with the infrared LED's on. However, take whatever they say and devide it in half and sometimes more. I've seen some cameras rated at 50/60 feet do a terrible job seeing anything identifiable at 20 feet.

Normally the larger the CCD the better but most cameras nowdays come with 1/3 inch. The larger the CCD the more expensive the camera. 1/3 inch is the median size between 1/2 and 1/4 inch.

There are nomographs available on line at various websites ( google it) that will help you determine what size lens will give you what angle of view a what distance. Measure your requirements and see if the lens on the cameras will give you what you are looking for.

Just ignore them if they are of no interest. They will not effect the spec's important to you.

There are not too many VHS tape machines around anymore. Stick with hard drive DVR's

I don't know what your particular goal is so I don't know why you would need additional motion detectors. The DVR shown on the website has built in motion detection with alarm notification/output. You can use this to activate ...... "something" that will cause your TV to switch to the proper input or to PIP. There are a number of ways this can be done. But you'll have to figure that part out for your self. However, this could be quite annoying if a raccoon keeps interrupting your favorite TV program. Or, what if you don't have your TV on and there's motion. I'd suggest a seperate monitor(s) with a soft beep when motion is dectected or IPhone notification.

I just read over the spec's briefly and I didn't see any reference to the resolution of the cameras. It doesn't mention if there is built in Back Light control ( which may or maynot be important to you depending upon what you are looking at) With the cameras only rated at

40 foot vision at night that says probably it's only 20 feet. There's no indication of the frames per second and the ability to adjust them for the DVR. No indication if the DVR will give you a pre alarm recording to see the events that led up to the motion alarm. The focal length of the lens is not mentioned for the camers at all so you don't have any way to determine what field of veiw you're going to have. Are there any adjustments at the camera? If there are, do you have to disassemble the housing to get at them. If you are going to want to view this from off site, it doesn't really say how that is accomplished. Some of these devices require a fixed IP address in order to view from off site. It would be nice to be able to see an installation manual for the DVR to see what it's going to take to set it up. Particularly if you're using remote viewing. By the way, with regard to seeing what's going on from within your home, you should be able to address the DVR on your local network from any computer on the network. However, as far as remote viewing or viewing via IPhone etc, if you've never port forwaded a network router, you may need the assistance of someone who can help you do that. Keep in mind that as much as you may not think you want remote viewing, you may actually find it convenient to get an E-mail on your IPhone, even while your at home .... but not near a monitor, .... to say nothing of knowing what's going on at home while you're on vacation or even just out locally shopping, etc. You're buy the DVR and it has this capability .... why not take advantage of it?

I've only broached the tip of the iceburg here. As you can see and as I mentioned earlier, it takes more time to type stuff like this out for you, than it's worth. It takes lots of seminars, reading, experimentation and on the job expererience to get this stuff right. That's what professioals bring to you that lot's of people don't recognize. In other words ..... you don't know what you don't know. So you don't even know what questions to ask. It'd be worth it to educate you if you were going to have me install your system..... but ..... you're not.

Maybe someone else will be good enough to pick it up from here.

Good luck.

Thanks for the detailed response.

Always here, no network, no iPhone, did I mention no network?

Your idea of simply alarm dedicated monitor is what I used to do, back when the cameras were vidicons. How much is a starlight camera? no LEDs

I have no idea. If I want to read the newspaper, I wait till there's enough light and I hold it pretty close to where I am.

With proper positioning, the motion will detect them by the Telco demark and a good DVR will upload the footage (FTP) right away. You can also take measures to 'harden' the demark, or ask the Telco to move it to your MDF closet inside.

Both these online vendors have quality parts:

If you want, grab a satellite image of the place and take a screen-shot. I can help you place them.

Highlight the areas that you are talking about (use Paint, or whatever) and post the image on a picture host (tinypic). a picture is worth a

1000 words (maybe more).

PS: Block out any identifiable information on the image since its a school.

Get one, that's one of the best features of the system.

I had my hands on a $60k camera/housing not too long ago. All stainless steel and explosion proof, heavy mo-fo.

See the links I left a minute ago in this thread. If you want to learn a lot more about CCTV the forum:

has loads of archives with 'gems' and open forums to ask questions.

thank you for the forum URL

hard to believe that while watchiing a Perry Mason episode, the character was heard to say, "...and he took that $6,000 to build a beach house in Malibu..." have times changed, or what?

get a network? uh, this house is wired for CAT5 is that the type of network? what electronic box to plug in, or are these all 'plug n play'?

Before my time, that's for sure.

What I mean is the network functionality is one of the neatest features. You just plug it into an empty port on your router. People love being able to pull up their cams from work, home (for a commercial job), vacation, whatever.. A web browser is all you need, no iDevices necessary.

Perry Mason RERUNS!

This would be a 'local' network only. I purposely keep to dial up modem speeds. Three times before a virus could get downloaded I've had time to physically pull the connection.

But the concept of 'plug n play' in a macro system is intriguing.