Opinions on backup reporting devices

I have a problem with some of the backup wireless devices that are being promoted and being used today that don't promote or provide for redundancy reporting.

In the past, when setting up back up radio devices, the back up device reported at the same time as the land line dialer. Now days, I find that even though the devices are now capable of sending CID .... they never send an alarm signal unless the dialer doesn't detect a dial tone. And anyone I talk to about this just doesn't think that it matters.

Any one have thoughts on this?

Reply to
Jim
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RHC: Well, lets look at the alternatives...

1- Dial tone works, panel reports regularily, backup unit is static....all is well 2- Dial tone doesn't work, backup reports....all is still well. Backup likely advises the fact that TLM is down, either then or in advance, in which case client knows his phone line is out in advance of the alarm...all is well 3- Dial tone works, panel sends, backup also sends and duplicate signals are received at the station....not sure how good or useful this is, but in some cases it can count against your signal count on the backup device

If the backup device is only used for backup, I don't think it matters much if at all. If it's being used as primary communications, the signal goes through faster than a phone line. If the backup device is programmed NOT to send the weekly or daily test....all is still well, since lack of a test signal from the panel itself tells the dealer that the panel is not working in regular phone line mode for whatever reason.....

Unless I'm missing something here, I don't see a problem ???

Reply to
tourman

How about line is so noisy signals can't get recognized properly by CS, but there is dial tone and line voltage?

Reply to
Bob La Londe
.

RHC: Ok, that's one.....

Reply to
tourman

How about .... the last time the installer was there for a trouble shooting call, he forgot to reconnect the trip wire to the backup device.

How about the trouble that DSC had where their backup device was sending supervisory signals but wouldn't trip in the alarm state.

How about when the cable company back feeds the telephone line through a phone jack and although the panel senses a dial tone it gets cut off when the panel tries to send.

I have a feeling there's more but I can't think of anymore right now.

But, part of the point I'm getting at here ....( aside from the redundancy/lack of security issue) is that now ..... since everybody is trying to get in on the recurring revenue golden egg .... Like DSC, Alarmnet, etal, .... sending wireless signals are being charged by the transmission. and THAT's what's driving it in the direction it's going.

And THAT'S the issue.

For what reason do you or I need another "partner" in sending alarm signals to central station. We pay the phone company, we pay the ISP's. We pay the central stations. Why do we have to pay anyone else? I can't believe that there's no way to just send a signal to central station by just using a cellular phone device ..... same as a land line telephone without paying someone eles for the "privilege" of doing it because they manufacture equipment that can only operate using a network that they control. CCTV mfg's set up DDNS servers and don't charge for it .... What's the problem here?

Reply to
Jim

Then the CS would not send an ack. (kiss off), and the FTC would trigger the backup device. Correct?

What backup device specifically?

Reply to
G. Morgan

If you can negotiate with the cell carriers to use their "control channel", go for it.

Reply to
G. Morgan

Uh I think we all went through that debacle just a few years ago

Reply to
mleuck

I understand one of the manufacturers is working on a flag semaphore system, only drawbacks are it has to be line of sight and data transfer is very slow

Reply to
mleuck

RHC: Why would that surprise you ? Everyone wants a share of the golden goose. Large multinationals sell their souls everyday for RMR. Hell, companies buy each other out simply to get the lists of that company's customers so they can target them for sales of other recurring revenue products and services ! Even cable companies are starting to bundles numerous services together simply to get more of the recurring revenue "pie".

Everyone wants in......but your question is no less valid

Reply to
tourman

I've got a semaphore for you .... It consists of my middle finger, pointing up.

Reply to
Jim

Gotta use a flag, people can't see that from a distance

Reply to
mleuck

It depends on how you set up the panel, you can have redundant or backup reporting with Honeywell panels and AlarmNet cell/IP devices, with TelGuard and Uplink you are limited to either cell primary or backup.

What cell units are you specifically talking about?

Reply to
mleuck

The device that comes to mind is the DSC units. But there are others that do the same thing.

It's redundant but you can't get CID, only single digit reporting and if I remember right, you have to have individual triggers for each type of signal sent and I think there's a maximum of 3. ( Since my first bad experience I haven't tried it since, so they may be different now)

Reply to
Jim

I don't know where you get your info but they all can do CID

Telular does dialer capture, supports and sends 4x2, CID, SIA, and Radionics Modem as backup or primary Uplink does dialer capture, supports 4x2, CID and SIA and Radionics Modem backup or primary DSC does dialer capture or keybus connection, supports CID primary (might be backup too, I forgot) AlarmNet does dialer capture or keybus connection, supports CID backup or primary

You may be thinking of the old stuff?

Reply to
mleuck

You can't tell me that there is NO WAY that a device can't be designed that will allow alarm signals to be transmitted over VoIP .... I don't believe it. Change the format. Change the bandwidth, Change the frequency, change the pulse width. Use sum check, use WHAT EVER and get it done. All these mfg's are doing is coming up with their proprietary methods using 20 year old technology and THEIR primary purpose is to insure that they are getting a piece of the RMR instead of trying to fix the problem.

That's hard to believe. So let's see .... AlarmNet, who's primary busines is figureing out how they can create a need for a product that requires them to retransmitt a signal to my central station, doesn't charge anything at all, to anyone in the signal path for this? So the central has to have the appropriate receiver and this module is universal or only compatable with Hornywell products?

Reply to
Jim

Maybe I am.

But .... you're saying that these devices will send these signals if used as primary or back up . And I'm saying that, assuming the telephone line is primary and the radio is back up ..... I want both to transmit every time there's a signal sent to central. If you do use the radio for back up with redundant reporting, you can't get them to transmitt CID simultaneously, so your only choice is to use bell output or relay trip to trigger the radio, resulting in only a single CID code, a single digit or perhaps a single 4/2 output on the backup, for any given alarm signal..

Here .... let me give you a fer-instance of what happened. With the "new lower standard" for the use of backup, (which only requires the backup to work if the land line doesn't) The other day I got a call from my customer that her alarm went off in the middle of the night. She told me the bedroom windows showed open. I went to the home to do a service call, and just to make sure, I called central to verify which zone is was. They said they couldn't tell me because it only came in on the backup radio. I asked them to look at the previous alarm signal. They said that also only came in on the back up radio. I asked why I wasn't notified that the land line wasn't working. They said that usually no one wants to know, besides they don't have it in their program. I sent signals from the panel and it got through to central on the landline so I don't know what the problem was. There was no comm fail or tel line fault in the panel memory. As far as the problem goes, I don't know what caused it at this point .......I'm still working on it. However.....

Now .... as I'm typing this, I'm wondering if it's just the centrals lack of notification policy or are the monitoring programs not set up to provide this information. So .... I'll ask you ..... do you have installers who send redundant signals to your central? If so, do you notify your alarm companys if only one technology reports an alarm signal? How do you know if the "radio" signal you're getting is primary or backup? Is there a way in the central station program to know this information and take action on it? That is .... even if the reporting is Not redundant and only the radio reports, what do you do?

Reply to
Jim

There seems little point trying to make an alarm panel communicate over VoIP, if the customer has VoIP then they have a broadband connection so they should just use an IP communicator and be done with it.

Doug

Reply to
doug

On Jul 15, 2:11=A0am, "doug" wrote: .

That's a valid point. However, it's possible that it would be less expensive to produce a product that would work with VoIP. I dunknow.

So .......... what's the next step? What are the objections to using IP communications. Whatever they are .... let the manufacturers overcome them ( without becoming my parther and without over pricing ) and let's get on with this. Provide a panel with built in land line/VoIP/Cellular/IP Comm/Semaphore flags/Morse code Whatever! .... going directly to a receiver at the central station. Why the brain freeze? I aren't an injunear but ....... I mean ...... with all this technology out there, is it really possible that there ISN"T a way to do this? I don't believe it.

Reply to
Jim

Agreed, they are usually too cheap to pay for the extra cost of equip. & monitoring though.

Reply to
G. Morgan

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