I was called to a potintial customer today. They needed their fire alarm system tested. When I arrived, I found that it was 4 pull stations wired to
4 4" edwards 110VAC adaptabells.
The owner told me that they never needed it inspected before but now the fire marshal was needing something showing it works. What do you guys do if you run into this situation.
I have only seen this setup once and the fire marshal forced them to replace the system since it was not supervised and it had no back up power.
Just pull the pull stations and make sure they work. And all bells are working. As well make sure the breaker/reset is working. They don't like LVT systems here either, but there grandfathered till they fail.
Remove the 110V audibles and wire the pulls to a conventional FACP with 24VDC horn strobes and backup batteries.
Interestingly, we recently sold a commercial fire alarm system to the father of a 9-year old boy. He explained that his son doesn't enjoy typical children's toys. For several years the child has been wiring up alarm systems -- not installing them, just experimenting with them. His dad explained that he enjoys figuring out the manuals and making the things work. I thought the good folks here who install "professionally" would like knowing that a 9-year old boy understands the manuals well enough to connect and program a commercial fire alarm system. Maybe next year I'll offer the kid a summer job doing tech support. :^)
It's just not that simple anymore. Once you update the system, you must comply with all the ever changing NFPA rules and local ordinances. This usually ends up being a very expensive upgrade for the most part.
I'd suggest doing what the owner wants you to do (the annual inspection). He's the boss until your report comes across the desk of the local AHJ who may decide otherwise. I'd also suggest you
*recommend* upgrading his system, but until the AHJ orders it, it looks like you may have another source of "RYR". There are dozens (if not hundreds) of systems in the BC Lower Mainland that are unsupervised and "grandfathered". The annual inspections are a "snap" to do. :-)
Actually, they're "grandfathered" until the AHJ says otherwise. If a bell or pull station "fails", replace it with a UL/ULC listed fire alarm device compatible with the voltage of the "system". In the Vancouver area there are hundreds of old AC "systems" out there. Only Burnaby has taken the step to order apartment owners to upgrade to a full fire alarm system and even then they've given them a generous time line in which to comply (mind you, most owners still "bitch" like mad about it because it involves spending money).
While we're "on the subject", what do you guys bill as a minimum for an inspection like this? On a three story walk-up with six bells, six pulls and one (or two) heat detectors - say 20 devices total - with all the required paperwork completed (for the applicable jurisdiction) we're at around the $200.00 mark.
$200 is fair when I was doing inspections. Now with all the NFPA this, and Nicet that, it would have drove my rates up to the $400 mark just to make ends meet.
Jim Rojas
Frank Ols>> I was called to a potintial customer today. They needed their fire
What fire code standards have been adopted in that area? Was the system permitted originally and under what standard? That would speak more to the grandfather issue. My understanding is the AHJ can increase but not decrease coverage standards. If you can't find where it was originally code compliant and under what standard I don't know how you could tag it as being compliant currently (grandfathered). I say red tag it and let the owner and the AHJ figure it out. Once it's all down in writing from them on what to do you can make you move. That way someone else's butt is on the line and not yours.
Unfortunately, "trunk monkey" is only available on certain vehicles. As far as I know they haven't any trained to answer the phone (or email) just yet.
Well, I think the building was installed in the early 80's. Its a motel building. The Office is out front and then there are two 2 story buildings with rooms on each side on the rear of the lot. they are not attached by any means. each building has 2 stairs on the ends. So the pull stations are located at the ends of the buildings by the steps while the bells are located in the middle of the buildings along the walkways. So each building has 4 bells and 4 pulls..
When i got there to see what they had, the owner told me that they had done some work and last year when they pulled one of the stations it worked fine. Then he said they installed some sofit around the eves. Well, on the top floor, they covered the bells. so those will have to be lowered.
I have the NFPA forms for test and I was going to just put exactly what they had. Show that its not supervised and it runs on 110VAC with no back up power.
But i have to wait to see if he wants me to test it. I told him I would charge $100.00 to do it but from the way he looked, he probably thought I was high on the price.
I agree but not strictly from the liability standpoint. I don't think you're exposing yourself to any kind of "potential liability" for properly completing the suggested test form (or the one your local AHJ provides). Where "liability" comes into play is when you've tagged off on something as "meeting spec" and it can be demonstrated that it doesn't (negligence). It is suggested (some would use the word "mandatory") that you maintain an insurance policy that covers you for general liability as well as exposure to the risks specific to your line of work. In many jurisdictions you have to provide proof of coverage before you are awarded the contract.
You really have to cover your expenses and put a few shekels aside (called profit), or the whole exercise isn't worth it. $100.00 for an inspection is ludicrously low. I wouldn't even roll a truck unless my man was "covered" by a minimum two hour charge. At $65.00 an hour, that's $130.00 just to get his body on site. Then there's the hour it will take him to complete the paperwork, materials (canned smoke, etc.). Even $200.00 is on the "light side" and I would only do it for that amount if the customer was a "regular" with multiple buildings (of similar construction and layout) which we already serviced.
There is no warranty either provided or implied for annual tests/inspections. Warranty only applies to those devices you supply as "new" to a job. Devices can fail at any time. The manager has to perform his monthly and daily tests (and maintain records of those tests). It's usually at this stage that you can document exactly when the device in question "failed".
I should add that the "cheapskates" Roland mentions in his response wouldn't employ our services. They'd find some Nimrod to do it for the $100.00 (and they'd be welcome to the headache afterwards).
The only reason I said I would do it for $100.00 was because since he only had a total of 8 pull stations between the two buildings, and they all are kinda close together, it wouldnt take me very long to activate each one and let the bell ring, slap the information on the form and give it to him... It could be done in about 30-45 min. I have a smaller system I test for $100.00 and it has a 1 zone panel, 2 pull stations, and 1 horn. Thats it. Now, the other system that is kinda large, I charge by the hour.
I dont think filling out the form with this type of system would be much of a liability on my part. All im doing to testing the system. I have not installed anything or did any adjustments. Like someone said a few post back,
There is no warranty either provided or implied for annual tests/inspections. Warranty only applies to those devices you supply as "new" to a job. Devices can fail at any time. The manager has to perform his monthly and daily tests (and maintain records of those tests). It's usually at this stage that you can document exactly when the device in question "failed".
I should be ok...Anytime I do something that is a flat fee, I make sure I get payment up front. Usually that is with someone who is a new customer. I will only bill someone if I have worked with them in the past.
I hate to have to spend m> > Roland Moore wrote:
I've said it before. Having no customer is better than having one who doesn't pay.
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