Product Idea: X10 to UPB/Zigbee/Insteon translator

I don't know how big a deal it would be but I wonder about the feasibility and marketability of a device that would accept the same connection & signal input that the TW523 uses to then translate and issue a command in one of the newer HA formats. The device could be specific to one translation or could be a more universal device that could do all three. I think that such a device would be helpful in propagating the new technologies while enabling a user to use their "legacy" controller and support multiple formats rather than having to scrap everything and start over. Opinions? Dave H?

Reply to
BruceR
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Insteon already supports X-10 although not with a TW523 emulation.

I think SmartHome would balk at supporting UPB and vice versa and given that both licenses would be involved I doubt a ménage-à-trois would get off the ground.

I assume you want TW523 emulation so it would work with your JDS gear, HomeVision, HAI, etc. but I think the TW523 protocol would be far too restrictive to make best use of either Insteon or UPB.

I can say that I was approached to be a beta tester for a planned UPB/X10 bridge. I turned it down because of my health and I will not say any more. I don't know whether the project had the blessing of PCS.

I was impressed with the reliability of Insteon. My brief tests were not conclusive but others are beginning to post good reports also so I think it's a potential winner. You may soon see HAI and others offering an Insteon interface. I think PCS made a mistake when they priced UPB at a premium level.

There may so>I don't know how big a deal it would be but I wonder about the

Reply to
Dave Houston

Thanks for the quick response on this Dave. I knew you'd be the "go to" guy for some good thoughts on this.

Your assumption is correct in that I hate to scrap the $1000+ investment in my JDS stuff; however I'd be willing to do so if I could find another stand alone device that's as capable. I spoke to SmartHome about how Insteon works with X10. My understanding is that if a device is set up to receive X10 then the Insteon benefit is lost. IOW, there is no ability to repeat an X10 signal as an Insteon signal. He also told me that they did not have a translation bridge on the drawing board but thought it was a good idea.

Even if the translation on such a bridge were limited to the standard "on-off-dim-bright" (I'd even settle for just "on-off") it would be enough to get me to scrap the X10 stuff and switch to Insteon (or another). I see your point about the licensing of competing translations in a single box. That would be fine too as only one would typically be needed. I suppose different boxes could be produced for different protocols.

JDS is working on a UPB interface but, at least in its first iteration, it will require removal of the phone board which is unacceptable to me as I use that function extensively. It's good to hear that someone is working on a UPB/X10 bridge. I already have some UPB stuff and would love to be a beta tester if they're still looking.

I think that whoever comes to market with an X10 bridge to any of the new protocols is likely to get a quick leg up in getting guys like me to switch everything out and topple X10 as the defacto standard. The availability of a bridge would get some vendor a bunch of $2500+ module/switch orders in a heartbeat.

From:Dave Houston snipped-for-privacy@whocares.com

Reply to
BruceR

From a technical POV a TW523 emulator for UPB or Insteon is certainly doable. A PIC or AVR would be sufficient to translate between the JDS (or any other device that supports the TW523) and a serial interface for either Insteon or UPB. Including a 310MHz RF receiver would allow for control of the Insteon or UPB devices with palmpads, etc.

The UPB serial protocol is published. The Insteon serial SDK is about $100 and includes the protocol (although I still cannot recommend it given the terms of their license).

This might be someth>Thanks for the quick response on this Dave. I knew you'd be the "go to"

Reply to
Dave Houston

Excellent idea. I will send Dan an email and see what he thinks. Thanks!

From:Dave Houston snipped-for-privacy@whocares.com

Reply to
BruceR

Let us know the outcome.

One potential problem will be speed. You'll have the time it takes for a TW523 command plus the normal time for an Insteon (or UPB) command plus a smidgeon for translation. Since the ZC signal will have to be simulated it can be sped up by increasing the rate of the simulated ZC but how much may depend on the device (e.g. JDS, Ocelot) it's interfaced with. I suspect the

1ms X-10 signal will be unalterable but the intervals between them can probably be shorter than 1/2 a powerline period.

However, I suspect most pe>Excellent idea. I will send Dan an email and see what he thinks. Thanks! >

Reply to
Dave Houston

The topic of translators/converters comes up from time to time. As I've posted in comp.home.automation before, in my opinion what is needed is a hydra-headed device that can input an X10 signal (either TW523/TTL-level or CM11a/RS-232) and output said X-10 dialect *and* one or more additional protocols.

Otherwise, it seems to me that the usefulness of a converter/translator-only device would be typically limited to folks willing to abandon all X-10 all at once based on limitations of existing hardware and software in common use which typically allow for one X-10 connection (Savoy's CyberHouse was one exception).

A hydra-headed device would accept the input of choice and allow routing of different addresses to different output devices by reference to a routing table sent to the device. This would add DMX512, UPB, Zigbee, UPB, whatever capability to an existing system using software already installed without disrupting existing use of X-10 (or other primary signal/protocol).

I've been plugging away as time permits on a such a translator/converter/controller for my ActiveKnob motorized potentiometer system and have posted recent progress on the Netmedia BX24p-based circuit board here:

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I hope to get the board files out to the fabricator within the month.

.... Marc Marc_F_Hult

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Reply to
Marc F Hult

Very interesting project there! I'd be interested in helping out on the translator if there's anything I can do.

From:Marc F Hult snipped-for-privacy@nothydrologistnot.com

Reply to
BruceR

Good points, I've saved this post. I'll try to reach Dan tomorrow or Tuesday and post the results.

From:Dave Houston snipped-for-privacy@whocares.com

Reply to
BruceR

Bruce,

Thanks for offering. We'll be in touch.

The BASICX command set used by the Netmedia BX24-p(

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includes specific controls for TW523, so output to that device is near trivial.

I plan(ned) to initially use a different input command set than the TW523's that has with a bigger vocabulary (dim rate, scene etc) such as Centralite or a cue command set such as that used in theatre lighting control. But different versions could be created for different applications.

Later ... Marc Marc_F_Hult

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Reply to
Marc F Hult

Called for Dan Boone today but he's no longer with ADI. The receptionist said that Dan Smith might be the guy to talk to so I left him a detailed voicemail and we'll see if there's any interest.

From:Dave Houston snipped-for-privacy@whocares.com

Reply to
BruceR

Dan Smith did most of the non-PIC coding for the Ocelot and Leopard. He's quite sharp.

In their Ocelot forum Kevin Barret wrote that they are working on a UPB interface but does not note whether it emulates the TW523 or is an RS485 node.

Some>Called for Dan Boone today but he's no longer with ADI. The receptionist

Reply to
Dave Houston

Reply to
Dave Houston

I'm looking forward to hearing from him. Do you have any further info or a URL on the Z-Wave emulator? I did a search but no joy.

From:Dave Houston snipped-for-privacy@whocares.com

Reply to
BruceR

Reply to
Dave Houston

Bingo! Thanks. The URL is:

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From:Dave Houston snipped-for-privacy@whocares.com

Reply to
BruceR

Reply to
Dave Houston

Or

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we find out that

1) it was engineered by Boca Devices (
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leads to a PLESK default page.

Picture here

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clearly says
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2) does not route x-10 so is apparently an "either-or" proposition (either X-10 or Z-wave) unless your controller supports more than one TW523 interfaces simultaneously without conflicts. A much better way to do this would be with a routing table or other means to maintain some addresses for each protocol. 3) costs $160 US !

.... Marc Marc_F_Hult

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Reply to
Marc F Hult

It certainly would - I think they'd sell a lot more Insteon if they did. I like the way the Z-Wave unit uses X10 codes to access the full expanded range of devices. It was designed by Boca Devices and I'd like to contact them but can't find anything other than a street address for them on Google. I'm going to be in Boca Raton around Thanksgiving so maybe I can talk to someone there in person.

From:Dave Houston snipped-for-privacy@whocares.com

Reply to
BruceR

I meant to respond to this one point earlier but got side tracked.

The Insteon computer interfaces (USB & RS232) can send both Insteon and X-10 commands. While it doesn't address your need for a plug'n'play interface compatible with your JDS controller it does address the need of those who want to gradually move from X-10 to Insteon or use some of each. Of course X-10 modules do not repeat the signals like Insteon modules do. And, since Insteon modules attenuate the signal, the more Insteon devices the worse will be X-10 performance.

I don't see any advantage to configuring an Insteon module as an X-10 module except for those whose budgets limit what they can do in one step. They could use Insteon modules with an X-10 controller until they can afford an Insteon controller (and software).

I think PCS made a mistake when they did not include the ability to send/receive X-10 commands in their UPB computer interfaces.

For those who want to write their own software, the USB version of the Insteon computer interface complies with the MS Human Interface Device class and there is ample documentation for that.

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For those who would like to reverse engineer the protocol...

A USB sniffer can be used to see what the USB interface reports when commands are sent with the table top controller included in the starter kit.

The RF protocol appears to repeat the PLC protocol on a 1:1 basis. Mouser sells a Radiotronix transceiver ($19) that can be programmed for the frequencies used by Insteon. It could eavesdrop on the RF from the Insteon starter kit to tease out the details.

Reply to
Dave Houston

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