No more X10 at Radio Shack?

Motion sensors swamp X10 quite rapidly. But seeing as how the sensors themselves are crap anyway that's only adding to the disaster.

Yep, no argument there.

Again, unreliable control of ANY number of devices is useless.

Technology marches on, it's time X10 was left behind.

I won't even recommend X10 just as a test for newbies. It runs afoul of so many disasters, so quickly, that it's not fair to aggravate them.

And if I light off a thermonuclear bomb we're all f***ed, so what's your point?

You're arguing that it MIGHT be possible for an RF-based system to suffer interference, as if that somehow countered the fact that an X10 system WILL SUFFER interference. How is this comparable?

Find an article discussing how something was DEMONSTRATED to interfere with currently shipping RF-based automation controls and you'd have a point. That a military transmitter might've interferred with a crappy garage door opener, again, does nothing to address the underlying disaster that is X10.

If you're simply trying to deflect the argument, that dog won't hunt.

Oh yeah, there's fodder for a whole other thread, one free of the 'agree to disagree' perspectives X10 engenders.

I'll still keep my Radioshaft 15-2117 RF remotes and let the wife use the Harmony. I can live with, and prefer, the "device oriented" approach to most traditional remotes. But the new "activity oriented" approach on the new Harmony remotes is rather nice. That and their integrated help makes it pretty painless to use (at the pain of unit cost though!)

Agreed, and this is the sort of nonsense that just drove me away from them.

Interestingly the Harmony remotes use Z-wave. No interfacing is indicated to go directly to other z-wave devices however. It's just for the remote to base station interconnect.

Yes, he's done an excellent job with that.

-Bill

IIRC they use 418MHz ASK which is shared with all the Powermids (and similar IR extenders), Philips Pronto (and similar RF-capable touchscreen remotes), etc. so the potential for interference is there. However, any such device that is following FCC rules on radiated power will have very limited range so, as a practical matter, it's only on-site devices that might cause problems.

Unfortunately, RadioRA uses a very long and complex code which makes it difficult to use directly with something like the Pronto.

snipped-for-privacy@yahoogroups.com

So in your assessment of the situation, garage door openers used reliably by millions of people are crappy because the military chose to use the same frequency for some of their equipment. What if the military chose to use the RadioRa frequency? If that caused interference, would that put RadioRa into the crappy arena too? Regardless of what frequency a system uses, I can design another system using that frequency that will render it useless.

Back east a local radio station with a very strong signal was often blocked for hours at a time. The FCC said that happens in an industrial area, and were not at all interested in pursuing the issue.

The basic problem that is we design with the information available at the time. Unfortunately, in this technology driven environment, things change. Some of us choose to deal with change by working the problems.

Jeff

Think of the technologies of the early 80's and what little there is left of it. Silver based photography, records, cassettes and more all went the way of the dodo. X-10 has remained, as has the venerable floppy disk, but even that will disappear with the newest MS OS, Vista Finally, the need to insert a floppy with drivers for specialized controllers will disappear and so will the floppy.

X-10 has remained because it's offered an awful lot of bang for the buck, especially when measured by cost. X-10's expense is quite low both in terms of both purchase and years of life gotten from each piece of equipment. Yes, I'm spending a bit to compensate for X-10's numerous issues, but those issues are compensible, and lots of problems in this world aren't, no matter how much money you throw at them. Having seen both kinds of problems, I prefer the ones that can be solved.

I'm both happy that there's something available to help extend X-10's life and that I can directly compensate the guy who invented it at the same time. It's important that people be rewarded for their ideas and there seem to be less and less opportunities for that in the increasingly faceless corporate world of ours.

-- Bobby G.

The same frequency as Powermids? How ironic. I thought the issue in RF interference is whether the radiated power of the interfering transmitter was equal to or greater than that of the 'legitmate' transmitter as measured at the receiver.

The rest of the article talked about a range around the transmitter of about

10 miles that was affected by the new AF radio system. As someone who still hears the occasional trucker coming through my stereo speakers, not all transmitters play by FCC rules. (-:

Maybe it's very long because it's got tremendous redundancy and resistance to any one part of the transmission being garbled. Maybe.

-- Bobby G.

No, I think it's long and complex because that "makes it difficult to use directly with something like the Pronto" and you have to buy their remote or use their IR to RF bridge. ;-)

snipped-for-privacy@yahoogroups.com

Yes, and as the saying goes "and if monkeys flew out of your butt..."

"Anything" is possible, not everything is likely. Meanwhile X10 fucks up every single day.

Of course not, X10 stinks, it did then and it still does now, even more so.

Certainly true for those who don't understand how to make it work right.

Many things need periodic maintanance to keep them running. Your car might not last too long without an oil change. Use the wrong transmission fluid, and you are in a world of trouble.

There have been a few interesting threads over on Cocoontech regarding problems with other systems. Only a hardwired system can be guaranteed to be virtually 100% reliable (assuming power is available). Everything else is at the mercy of other devices communicating over the same medium.

Jeff

I think that is the point, Jeff. While X10 certainly can be made to work with enough tweaking, filtering, etc., it is a medium that is prone to problems. Even experienced users frequently start lengthy threads here about problems with lost signals, failed components and stuff turning on/off for no apparent reason.

No doubt you're able to successfully maintain your X10 stuff. But most people, even most DIYers I know, just don't want to put up with the quirky behavior of X10. The goal in designing a system is to make it work "out of the box" and continue to function, regardless what new PC's, UPS's or other gear one acquires down the road. In this respect, IMO X10 fails miserably. I don't use it and I won't recommend it to customers.

Back before I really understood X10, I would have agreed with you. There was a time when I was tweaking to make it work. Back then everybody was talking about interference and how noise sources had to be filtered. Well it turns out that the major problem for X10 isn't from noise sources, but "signal suckers". They are usually devices with a simple capacitor across their power input to meet the FCC conducted radiation standard. Those manufacturers don't care if their devices corrupt other signals on the line. They just use the cheapest fix possible to meet FCC regulations.

The most important thing I did to increase reliability was to get an Elk ESM1 signal level meter. Then I could really see the major problem was low signal levels, not noise. It can take some time to go through the house to identify and isolate those signal suckers. The important thing is to provide decent signal levels throughout the house. Unfortunately, an inexpensive X10 transmitter can't provide the drive necessary for a larger house, and some type of booster may be required.

Yes, there are noise sources too. Prime candidates are compact fluorescent bulbs, and "wireless" intercoms such as baby monitors. I reported elsewhere that 4 generic (cheap) CF bulbs radiated enough noise to cause problem. However, that is easily solved with a $25 filter.

When you buy a car, you understand it needs oil changes and periodic maintenance. Some of them don't even work perfectly "out of the box", and have to visit the dealer several times to get their quirks ironed out. So if one accepts this from a $20,000 item, why bitch endlessly when one has to do some maintenance to keep X10 running? Provide a decent signal level, and it works fine.

Jeff

This is where we disagree, Jeff. I've purchased three new cars and two new motorcycles in the past three years. All of them require periodic oil changes (something I choose not to DIY). None of them required any tweaking "out of the box" to be able to use them. In fact, if I had to make changes to other things or buy a piece of test equipment just to make a given car work, I'd never buy that make again. I expect that what I buy and/or install will work without having to modify the rest of the house.

Ah, but I don't. I bought an Odyssey van last year. It has satellite radio, a touchscreen GPS navigation system and lots of other cool stuff. I expect it all to work first time and to give little or no trouble for the three year period that I normally keep a new car. If I had to bring it in for service several times in the first month I'd have been sorely disappointed in the product. The same applies to HA products I sell to DIYers. I expect the client to be able to use them by simply following the directions and/or discussing them with me. If a product failed to function repeatedly (as most X10 stuff does) I'd feel obligated to issue a refund. Like most retailers, I don't like issuing refunds if I can avoid it. I also don't like having to deal with problems from cheaply made, unreliable products. As such, I simply can't recommend X10.

Part of the problem is that many X10 transmitters simply don't provide a strong enough signal. The other, as you have often said, is that other normal pieces of household equipment can absorb the X10 signal. This means that any X10 system can fail later due to users plugging in a new PC or whatever. To me that's just not acceptable. You've been working with X10 a long time and are able to fix these problems as they arise so I can understand your position. For me and for many of my DIY customer though, this amounts to a lifetime of whack-a-mole service issues.

No warranty fixes or corrections? Any dealer-prep items either before or after you took delivery of the vehicle?

(and if you say 'no', it means you don't understand the role of a car dealer very well)

So having priced Odyssey's in late 2004 / early 2005, I know yours was closer to $40,000 than $20,000. Stripped down they didn't even get down to $20,000 sticker, but perhaps if you could find a bare model the dealer might take a loss just to get rid of the low-end inventory.

Further, your Honda is reputed to be one of the brands with the fewest number of post-delivery issues. Many people have a different experience, even with premium brands like Jaguar or Mercedes.

Comparing the purchase experience of a > $30,000 vehicle (with its associated dealer setup and delivery) to a mail-order or Radio Shack provided system for well under $300 you should have different expectations.

With that said, my X10 system is misbehaving, and yes, it is frustrating! :) However, at my price point it is X10 or nothing, so X10 it is. And I have corresponding expectations.

IMHO X10 does themselves a disservice by hiding the troubleshooting information and even the official documentation of potential problems behind their "Pro" site.

sdb

Nope. Other than to install a security syystem in the Fiat, the only times I've brought any of them in were for standard service -- oil chancge, etc. Oh, there was one thing. I brought the Odyseey in for oil, etc., recently and was informed that there was a service bulletin on the brakes. They said they were wearing unevenly or too fast (I forget which) so Honda replaced them at no charge but there was no apparent problem from our perspective.

Or possibly I just bought a few good cars. :^)

How would that apply to the discussion at hand?

Why would I want a Mercedes?

You bumped it up to $20,000. However, the Camry cost something like $25,000. There were no problems at all with the Camry either.

Bingo! I can understand your willingness to deal with X10's problems and failures. You know how to do it and you've made the decision to maintain it. My point is that most users just don't want the hassle.

Only you can make that decision. You're the user and it's your pocketbook. It kind of parallels my use of VoIP when I go to Brazil. The service isn't as good (yet) as POTS, but it's much more affordable and it offers services like call transfer to/from the USA. I put up with it because it's the only way to get what I want within budget. However, I don't recommend it for most folks because it's quirky and sometimes unreliable.

That's probably a marketing decision. If people knew in advance what they were getting into, many would buy something else.

And I continue to be amazed by how steadfastly some folks will cling to defending what's clearly a defective product.

That you're willing to play whack-a-mole with X10, and that YOU HAD TO in order to get it to work, makes it clear it's not a solution for the masses.

Again, claiming something else is /possibly/ worse doesn't make X10 'better'.

X10's dead, and rightly so.

It's the UR19A. Their fault? Well, when the glossy ad says there is a menu button and then when the product arrives there is no menu button, ahem ...

This VCR is quite old, 8-9 years. But we have learned to live with the problem. When the clock lags too much we pull the power cord and re-program the clock by hand an hour or so later.

I am not so sure about that. Pretty much all the more geeky people I know were turned off by those ads. To the point where some of them didn't go back there.

Hmm, maybe I missed something then. Got no vouchers :-(

That number might include all the ones that were sold. I bet most of them are laying around in a dusty box somewhere in the garage ;-)

IBM, RCA and many others got out of X10. From what I've heard the number of complaints reached suffocating levels. Sure, you and I and most folks on this NG know how to make it work. But John Doe doesn't. Neither does the neighborhood electrician. Let's face it, Jeff's XTB is probably the best thing that happened to X10 since sliced bread. But you cannot buy it in a store or electrician's supply house.

Most stores around here don't have the remotes in the showroom. Probably they have a way of "vanishing" when nobody is looking. Seems like some don't even have VCRs enaymore.

I could most likely get a better universal remote at Walmart, one that does have a menu button. I was just very surprised that the X10 remote didn't have that. It's kind of important.

And I am amazed by people like yourself who continue to trash an inexpensive solution to home automation just because some people can't learn how to make it work properly. As bitter as you are about X10, apparently you are one of them.

Most of us don't have the resources to spend $100 per load to automate our houses. Some people drive used cars and others may drive a new Lexus. Usually the choice is dictated by economic factors. X10 may not have Lexus status, but like my used car, it gets the job done.

Since you have stated many times that X10 is a defective product, I would like to know exactly what you think is defective (in technical terms). Considering what X10 modules must cost to manufacture, I'm impressed that they work so well. How many other electronic devices can be bought for a few bucks and last for decades?

The X10 protocol will probably outlast many of the new kids on the block. None of the other candidates have the rich selection of multi-sourced devices that are available for X10.

Jeff

Jeff > and >>Robert L Bass wrote

I think Robert's point is that an X-10 setup is in a constant state of tweaking. To that end, anyone highly concerned with tech support or SAF should be aware of its potential for problems.

Respectfully disagree. The "major problem" for X-10 is actually a constellation of problems that arise from slow transmission speed, primitive error detection and poor signal strength. If it was faster, there would be fewer collisions, if there was better error detection, you'd know when a targeted device failed to operate and if the signal strength was greater, it wouldn't be so easily knocked out by a noisy CFL or a signal-sucking UPS.

While I agree a meter is an important thing to have (so much so that I bought the Elk and the Monterey) the need for it troubles me. It's one of the things that makes me classify X-10 as "it works if you know the secrets." Using X-10 successfully means analyzing *every* stinkin' piece of equipment you buy with the X-10 meter to make sure it's not a black holer. That's a damn bother. I must confess I haven't bothered doing it since I've implemented the XTB's if only because I am curious to see when they'll become overpowered by signal suckers and noise.

fluorescent

I bit the bullet and bought 10 for a quantity discount. I think they came out to about $175. Add that to the cost of meters and the XTB and it adds up to money I wish I didn't have to spend, but I am glad that I did because the alternative was spending an awful *lot* more money on a new system. Since I want that to be hardwired, it's going to wait for the next house which will be built with HA in mind from the ground up.

I'm not sure of the correct analogy, but I don't think the car one fits. X-10 has lots of issues that have to be worked around, and they range from the trivial to the serious. I'd say one of the worst "features" is how many things turn themselves on after the right kind of power blip. It's infrequent enough to be lived with, and it's possible to work around (inconveniently by plugging one appliance module into another and using two ON commands to get it to work), but it's BAD. There are many others. They're not enough to make me stop using X-10, but they do make me wish there weren't as many problems.

-- Bobby G.

radio, a touchscreen GPS navigation system and lots of other

trouble for the three year period that I normally keep a

month I'd have been sorely disappointed in the product.

Ironically, the JD Powers customer satisfaction levels for a number of high and medium end cars has fallen noticeably for the first time in years and the blame seems to fall on all the new electronics that are crammed into vehicles nowadays. Having encountered a Beemer with "I" drive, I can understand it. It should have been called the "I yi yi!" drive because of its non-intuitive nature. A single control stalk was supposed to control all of the onboard electronics. NOT!

-- Bobby G.