halogen lamp on x10

Might have been too high a wattage bulb, a poorly ventilated shade, a low ceiling with limited airflow or a cheap design that caused heat to build up around the lamp.

If there is a dimmer in the lamp, there's a possibility of problem interactions with the X10 lamp module dimming circuitry. There are so many variations in lamp circuitry design, it hard to say what will work and what will not.

How did the bulbs fail? Their condition is often a clue to the mode of their failure. IIRC, black and smoky is probably old age or a bad bulb and greyish but clear means a cracked bulb, possibly from finger oil deposited on the quartz. Even with the bulbs to examine, it would be hard to pinpoint the cause.

I'm leaning towards low ceiling, bad airflow. These lamps reach a temperature = the melting point of lead. Sounds like it got hot enough to melt some solder somewhere. If it was pelletized, it was probably melted into that shape, not broken off from somewhere.

Not likely. Plenty of people bypass the built-in switch to insure X-10's triac circuit won't interact badly with the built-in dimmer at switch without ill-effect. Improper cooling from bad design or sub-optimal placement is likely to have much more effect. Halogen bulbs have to be allowed to get up to temperature. They'll fail prematurely if you use them in closets or other places where they're only on for a few minutes.

Are the flood fixtures able to dissipate heat better? Are the outside where it's always likely to be cooler?

If the contact wasn't good, you would see flickering and maybe even hear arcing noises. It's hard to really tell how hot the lamps are getting without Tempilsticks (basically crayons that melt at specific temperatures) or a fancy gun thermometer, but halogens in enclosed places (like video projectors) HAVE to be fan cooled or they'll burn up in short order. Floor lamps have a large radiant area to distribute the heat but the torchieres are so tall they often trap huge pockets of heat right at the ceiling, where heat naturally rises anyway.

Make sure that you test the tip switch in the unit and that the top has a wire fire guard. Those lamps have probably killed more people than Billy the Kid.

-- Bobby G.

An appliance module is what you should be using. Or, if you want remote dimming, bypass the dimmer switch in the lamp (pretty easy to do). What you have now is two triac dimmers in series and that causes problems.

From: snipped-for-privacy@thecraftstudio.com snipped-for-privacy@thecraftstudio.com

I do have an IR temp gun. Should I measure the temp at the fixture around the bulb? Or the bulb itself? Any idea what a normal running temp is?

May I ask what for? The only other folks I know who own one are the ones that burn up CPU chips on video to prove how hot they get (over 900F IIRC).

Measure the temperature on whatever surface might come in contact with flammable material if the lamp tipped over.

There's a chart here:

"Figure 1. Halogen bulbs not only waste large amounts of electricity but also represent a major safety risk because their surface temperatures are so high."

I wasn't even aware that California wanted to ban them during the energy crisis because they guzzle so much juice compared to CF bulbs.

Check out the figure below that, a map of the US casualties of torchiere halogens.

"Figure 2. Halogen lamps have caused more than 500 fires and 30 deaths around the country."

If I were you, I'd make sure that the bulb surface was less than Farenheit

451 (the ignition point of paper) if I were going to continue using it. If I didn't just chuck the damn firestick in the trash first! You can get some CF retrofits. I use the 8" long kind that puts out the equivalent of a 200W incandescent bulb and is still "touchable" unlike a halogen bulb, which I suppose is "touchable" too, if you're made of ceramic or have a *very* high pain threshold. :-)

-- Bobby G.

Don't point the gun at a bright light source -- you might damage it.

Interesting Figure/Graph, but it's wrong. Halogen bulb wall temperature must be between 250C (for halogen cycle to operate) and 350C (above which the lead-in wires through the pinch seal will fail). The graph shows 350C-550C. Also, Compact Fluorescents are often designed to operate at or slightly above 100C. The graph shows something nearer 75C.

I believe the UL test requires one of these lamps to fall over into/against a muslin cloth without igniting it. Generally, that requires a tilt switch to switch off when it tips away from vertical, and a shield spaced far enough from the bulb not to be above the ignition temperature and to keep the cloth far enough from the filament radiant heat source so the bulb radiant energy does not get a chance to ignite the cloth before it cools.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote

Interesting. I've looked at a lot IR temp gun sites in the last few hours and have not seen that warning. Do you have a source or URL for that information? I know it's true of night vision scopes, and *many* vendors of image intensifiers warn prospective buyers of the danger of pointing at a bright light source - namely that it will void your warranty - but that same warnings are curiously absent from the IR non-contact thermometer sites I visited.

Is "no bright light" something they only tell you via a little red sticker on the LCD window AFTER you've purchased the device? (Gawd I hate that!) As an amateur videographer checking bright lights is one of the first things I'd use a remote thermometer for - checking that the TV lights didn't get too hot!

Well, there, pilgrim, you gotta better URL? (-:

I think the Argonne National Lab's chart is more *right* than *wrong* in contrasting the various types of bulbs. You'd have to agree it illustrates quite clearly how much hotter halogens run compared to incandescent and especially compact fluorescent bulbs. The graph is not meant, I suspect, to be a manufacturer's engineering spec. They wanted to illustrate the fire danger from that heat by showing various common ignition points with some sample bulb heat and wattage ranges mapped to them.

I'm sorry, but I respectfully disagree about the upper limit. I distinctly recall reading some bulbs run very hot. Osram/Sylvania, who manufactures halogen bulbs, agrees with me on this, putting the top end at 600C and that's 50C *more* than the ANL chart and 250C hotter than your suggested upper limit:

| The tungsten-halogen light is similar to conventional non-halogen | incandescent light in that it employs a tungsten filament in a gas- | filled, light-transmitting envelope and emits the same type of light. | The major differences are that a trace of halogen vapor (e.g., iodine | or bromine) is added to the inert fill gas, the gas pressure (7-8 | ATM) and bulb temperature (250° C to 600° C) are much higher | than in non-halogen lamps, and the bulb is made of fused quartz | (silica, SiO2), high-silica glass or aluminosilicate ?hard? glass to | withstand the high operating pressures and temperatures. (see:)

or the shorter General Electric, FWIW, doesn't provide their bulb wall temperature information on their site, but basically repeat what I told the OP about things to look for in terms of overheating:

| 5. How can I find the surface temperature of a lamp?

| GE does not publish the surface temperatures of our lamps because | there are too many factors which can affect the measurement of the | bulb wall temperature, such as:

| The ambient temperature of the room | | Whether or not the surrounding air is still or moving (from | wind, a fan, air conditioning, etc.) and at what rate | | The specific characteristics of the recessed fixture, such as | its baffling, reflection, insulation, and ventilation properties

or the shorter: A torchiere operated in the corner of a room (especially one with bulkheads, overhangs or other features that trap hot air) is going to run a *lot* hotter than one that's got good air circulation or is lower to the ground or has better heat sinking around the reflector.

I don't even have to search the web to take issue here!!! I've got a dial/ stem-type darkroom thermometer stuck right against the bulb glass of a 13W GE CFL that's been burning for 15 minutes. It is exactly 55C (130F for us Yanks). I can unscrew the bulb with my hands while it's lit. The 45W (equal to 200W incandescent) does run much hotter, well over 100C. But the graph's not far off in my opinion. And God only knows what formatting errors occurred if it began life as other than a web document.

Besides, those endpoints are naturally going to be imprecise. Based on the context of the page, I think their agenda it to make halogen look bad and CF look good. Wouldn't you say the point of the graph is mostly about how MUCH hotter halogen bulbs are than CFL and even incandescent bulbs? Perhaps UK bulbs have different specs since they run at double the voltage that US ones do. I can't speak to that point, but may some puddle-jumper could. :-)

That was the old, "easy" UL test. The new tests are much more stringent. Don't I get any credit for being right when I said: "Those lamps have probably killed more people than Billy the Kid?" :-)

Unquestionably, the more I read about these things (there's an actual ignition movie here):

the more I am convinced the best way to "check" an old halogen torchiere is to chuck it. To my way of thinking, there are enough completely equivalent (actually superior in terms of cost) lighting techniques that the risk of using a halogen torchiere isn't balanced by any "must have" feature.

If I did have a pressing need for one, I might wire a second anti-tip switches (they can stick and fail) and look for a way to strap them to the wall the way California mandates water heaters be strapped. If I couldn't do that I would bolt it to the floor, make sure I had glass and wire shields over the bulb and that I had nothing in the "fall" radius that was particularly flammable.

At the State Farm Insurance company site,

they make these comments about revised UL testing:

Halogen torchiere lamps manufactured after that date [June 1, 1999] will have to meet the following requirements to bear the UL listing mark:

1. A metal or heat-resistant glass guard must be properly affixed to the lamp.
2. The lamp must pass a revised fire test -- the cheesecloth drape test. In this test, a 20-layer pad of cheesecloth is draped over the lampshade for seven hours with the lamp on. The cloth must not catch fire; no layer should develop holes;
3. Any lamps not designed with "tip-over switches" must pass a 12-degree stability test, which measures how prone the light fixture is to being knocked over.
4. The lamps must pass another fire test in which the lamp is set so it touches a vertical wall surface covered with untreated cotton terry cloth for seven hours without the wall igniting.
5. All halogen torchiere lamps must post a date of manufacture on the unit.

That's not guaranteed to be the most recent set of rules, but I think it shows they've uncovered more routine ignition sources. People obviously make cheese in their torchieres, hence the need to test cheesecloth. :-)

IMHO, if anyone uses halogen torchieres, they are increasing the risk of fire in their house substantially. If they're using one of the old lamps that doesn't meet the new standards above, they're really "playing with fire!" (-:

Could we GET further away from the original post? Sorry "bcboy!" (the OP, I think, but that was a lot of web pages ago!)

-- Bobby G.

Sort of like "WARNING: Do Not Look at LASER With Remaining Eye" :^)

Baking bread?

Seriously, I have a wood-fired clay oven. You can test the temp by tossing in some semolina and seeing how fast it burns, but it's sometimes easier to use a temp gun, especially to see variations across the oven. I lurked on ebay for some time to find one at a price that made sense for hobby baking.

Anyway, sounds like I should just ditch the torchiere. I haven't found a fixture I actually like in my living room. It's a wide room, with 8 foot ceilings. Most lamps look rather lost in it. They don't put out enough light. The torchiere at least lights the room, but it's annoying in other ways. I'd prefer some sort of built-in, but hanging fixtures would make the ceilings seem even lower. We could raise a section of ceiling and do architectural lighting, but it's not really in our budget. I'm now thinking about CF reflectors in recessed cans, and something to wash the ceiling. Dunno what that will be, though.

I'd consider using several table lamps. That's what I have in my present living room which is fairly large and has an 8 foot ceiling. You could do that and possibly add a pair of wall sconces if you have a fireplace.

I bought mine when I was designing the central heating system for the house. I used it to check the estimated U-values (heat loss) through the various walls/floors/ceilings/doors/windows were reasonable. Also useful for finding unexpected heat loss. As an example, although the ceilings below the attic were insulated, the access hatch wasn't, and was losing some heat when it was freezing outside -- ceiling was 22C, hatch was 12C). You can also go round the outside of the house when it's cold outdoors and look for hotspots. It's not easy to quickly measure the temperature of brick walls, plaster, and many other building materials any other way.

Having installed the central heating, I used it to balance the radiators (adjusting for correct temperature drop across each) and to ensure the boiler was operating in high efficiency condensing mode.

It can be fun to play with too. Pointing it at the sky at night, I've had readings of -50C. There needs to be a tiny amount of cloud to get a reading from -- no cloud and it can't get a reading (it doesn't work down to the -270C of interstellar space), and too much cloud keeps the daytime heat in so you only get something like -5C at cloud base.

I bought my father one too, rather more as a toy than with any particular purpose in mind. He uses his a lot when cooking. One of the first things he tried was checking the temperature of a casserole he was reheating from the previous day, and found it was only 55C when he had thought it would be nearly boiling.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in

That's certainly a good use for them.

I've read that some of the guns are quite susceptible to EMF interference. Apparently there are many grades of IR gun with varying degrees of sensitivity. The ones used for food safety seem to require frequent calibration to maintain accuracy.

Some of the sites I've visited list non-contact thermometers as low as $30. Not sure if they are any good but I assume as volume goes up, price goes down. The local RatShack's been selling them, but in the $100US range, IIRC. I'd bite at $30, or maybe even $50. At that cost it would probably pay for itself in short order identifying heat leaks.

-- Bobby G.

It seems that they are getting cheaper and cheaper. I'll probably pick one up just to have one. :-)

I would, unless I made sure that it was made as safe as you can make it. Even then, considering they're more deadly than Billy the Kid AND Jesse James combined, I'd sure want to know what they were up to all the time.

Look at CFL's in the 50W range. I have high ceilings and you could afford to run 6 of them for the electric costs of a single 300W halogen. I think that the CFL's will put out the equivalent of 1200W of incandescent or halogen lamps with very little chance of accidental ignition. The problems, of course, are the some CFL's can't be dimmed, some that interfere with X-10 and some that will age quickly if they are short-cycled frequently.

The problem that really vexes me is that big CFL bulbs don't fit a lot of sockets very well. I read the instructions on one Lights of America bulbs that said to never screw the bulb in by holding the glass tubes. Good luck on that!

Also, because they are much larger than a standard bulb (at least the high wattage varieties that you're likely to want) they tend to cast very sharp shadows if the reflector's too shallow.

One thing I really like is that in the summer, I can have lots of light without generating a lot of heat that I have to remove with increased airconditioning. I think the cost of running a halogen high wattage bulb in the summer really raises the operating cost, especially if you're in an area that hikes the electric rates in the summer. On the flipside, you'll be able to heat your home with the spill heat from the halogens in the winter!

-- Bobby G.

I haven't noticed that with mine.

Mine is in the $100 range, but was on special offer when I bought it. It includes a laser diode pointer. BTW one thing they can't do is to measure the temperature of copper -- copper acts like silver foil in the infrared. It's OK if it's painted or you stick a piece of tape on it though.

Another problem with the cheap halogen lamps is that the cheap dimmer produces so much electrical noise it will cause dsl to stop working. That can drive you nuts until you find the culprit. Turning the light off or at

100% bright (that bypasses the dimmer) will solve the dsl problem.

Bill

temperatures)

Cheap dimmers have been implicated in a lot of X-10 problems, too. I seem to remember coming across a post where someone said that they installed a halogen light with dimmer that caused their CM11A to overheat whenever the lights were dimmed. Obviously there's lots of variance in dimmer design.

-- Bobby G.