Help with 7 Circuit Project?

I would recommend using UPB. Simply automated and HAI makes some nice switches. The switches can be located anywher in the circuit and for simplicity may be easier to install them by the circuit breaker panel if you want remote control access anyways.

You can get their table top controller, that plugs into a wall outlet, or use a single gang scene controller in a single gang outlet near the entrances. One switch has multiple buttons, and allows control based on scenes.

The ceiling fans will need to be on/off configured, but the nice thing about UPB is every switch is a relay switch and a dimmer, it is based upon programming, and the programming software is free.

Something like a Lutron GrafikEye, Radio RA or a Lightolier system might work. You'll have to put the switch and/or relays "somewhere" but you could put controls for them elsewhere. Got a closet nearby? Or some nearby location that wouldn't look strange with a bunch of wall plates? If so then you could put something like a 5,10 or 15 button controller from a Lutron RadioRA system on the porch for control. Then it's just a matter of setting up with buttons trigger which 'scene' levels.

I'm not sure how many systems will reliably control the speeds on the fans. You may end up with them being on their own controls, with wall switches for them unless you only want on/off remote controlling (which is what I do)

Personally, I despise anything powerline controlled. The technology's just too unreliable. Sure, I wish is were otherwise but experience has shown me it's very unreliable.

Thanks Brett and wkearney,

As I take it UPB is X-10 only different. The powerline things seem incapable of handling fan speeds. And the luftron products seems incapable of handling a fan at all though they can handle motors. Can any of this stuff control a ceiling fan?

I bought a $30 Hunter fan remote control. You put a little reciever in the fan and wire the light and fan to it. Both the reciever and remote control have 4 hardware selectable frequencies. Hence, you could (if you don't mind taking the cover off the remote) control 4 fans and four lights with this single remote. What I'm looking for is something very similar except the remote would be mounted on a wall and would control all 7 circuits. I relalize that this makes it necessary to have 7 different IDs and be able to tell the remote what ID is what device. Is there something like this available?

I would recommend you take a hard look at UPB. It has proven a 99.99% reliability record for 5 years now. Powerline used to mean X-10. UPB took the X-10 ideology and made it work. The two biggest problems with X-10 were signal strength and the frequency it was used at.

Signal Strength. X-10 transmits 5 volts at the zero line crossing. It is extremely easy to get 5 volts of noise on a powerline circuit, and the zero line crossing is where noise is most prevalent. Once the voltage of the noise surpasses the voltage of the signal, you lost communications. The second problem is X-10 transmits at 121 KHz. At this frequency the signal attenuates, or loses its strength over a short distance. Combine these factors together (low signal strength over a short distance, and a little bit of noise) and X-10 does not work.

Other complaints of X-10 had to use a coupler/repeater and it is slow. What do you think Radio Ra uses, basically every 30 feet you need a device to repeat the signal to get good coverage, and Radio Ra is as slow if not slower than X-10. Now I am not bashing Radio RA, it is a great reliable technology, but it 3 times the cost of professional X-10 or UPB. However if you want terracotta wall plates than you better call Lutron to get Radio RA.

Now enter UPB.

UPB transmits approximately 1/6th of a cycle before the sine wave at 40 volts above the voltage of the sine wave. It has a peak voltage around 60 volts transmitting in the 4-40 kHz spectrum. What this means, it works very well. You will not have noise the masks the UPB signal. If you do, you have a whole lot more to worry about than your lights, likely nothing in your home will operate properly. Due to its frequency, I have had dealer tell me they have seen UPB transmit over 5 miles of electrical cabling.

With UPB, you have about 64,000 password protected addresses compared to 256 X-10 Addresses. UPB also allows for many unique applications that other protocols do not adapt well to. I have a three-way circuit using UPB, and there is no traveler wire. There are no UPB repeaters, they do not need them the signal is strong enough for large commercial factories, it will talk to you home switches.

The .01% failure rate is due to retrofitting UPB into a graphic eye lighting (a proprietary hard wired) system. That system does not play well with third party protocols, this application you may consider a Radio Ra system for retro fitting.

5 years? It was first announced about 2.5 years ago, first shown about a year ago, and has been shipping for only 9 months or so.

You are full of it. The loss of signal strength is independent of distance. There have been numerous studies that confirm this. It's the inductive and capacitive loading that attenuates the signal.

Most X-10 transmitters actually transmit 10Vpp at 120kHz. Noise is lowest at zero crossing.

When did they reduce the speed of light? What about gravity? Have they changed that law, too?

Your description of a UPB "signal" sounds very much like noise pulses which are quite common from triacs, motors, ballasts, etc. As I understand it, UPB generates their pulse by rapidly discharging a capacitor. That sounds like a noise pulse.

I suggest you learn a few fundamentals before trying to pass yourself off as an expert. Spouting nonsense like this on topics you obviously do not understand will get you an idiot label rather quickly.

Actally, PCS Lighting (who developed UPB technology) bagan alpha testing in

1999, and beta testing in 2003. Actually they are still testing (because Marshall, the engineer that discovered the technology in his garage, wants to be sure there are no errors like X-10 has.) Products bagan shipping from PCS lighting in November of 2003, which is now 17 months according to my watch.

What do you think long runs of copper create? At higher frequencies it attenuates the signal. I am a little light on this, I admit. However I know that long runs of cable translates into needing more signal strength. Several manufactures have explained this to me as well.

I am not looking to argue symantics here. The point I am trying to bring up is that most manufacturers discuss a 5 volt signal and that is small enough for noise to mask the signal. UPB does not have this problem as it transmits 40 volts above/below the sine wave.

Actually technically speaking it is Pulse Frequency modulation if you desire to get specific, I was trying to keep the discussion general enough so the entire audiance would understand. It may very well be as you describe a noise pulse. However it is the timing and positioning of the signal that encodes the data.

I know my fundamentals, and I know this topic very well, I have taught over a thousand dealers about this topic and have been involved in close to 100 installs. I was an HAI trainer until January 2005 when I left to be an independant consultant. I also know the developers of UPB personally and speak with them frequently, I have the knowledge from the horses mouth, so to speak. I am not spuoting any nonsense, as you chose to say.

My point was to stress to those who have written off power line controls, they should re-consider. UPB is a very reliable technology. The experience I have with, shows that it works in any home with neutral. It is as reliable as a hard wired system, with out the cost. With that being said it is a common agreement amoung the manufacturers that support UPB that in high density dwellings like Apartment buildings and condos, a hard wired system is a better choice. In some cases it is more reliable than a hard wired system, for example Vantage has at least one circuit board in there that if it goes out, you have no lights. UPB does not have any single point of failure, except for a black-out...

I have an excellent grasp on both X-10 and UPB, I am hired frequently to help dealers troubleshoot either system. My training of dealers required me to understand both systems, in order to teach and troubleshoot problems in the field. You and I arguing symantics is pointless, and is losing the reader.

You are missing the entire point of the post. I was merely explaining to those in the US and Canada that they should seriously take another look at UPB. Of course, UPB will not work in Europe, it is not even compatible with

50 Hz.

All manufacturers for liability reasons are recommending couplers, there are no repeaters. PCS has determined only 8% of installations require a coupler, and Manufacturers would rather be right 100% of the time than wrong

8 % of the time. Recommending it reduces tech support calls.

You are right the password is merely a method to reduce cross talk between home. the are 256 house codes 256 unit address, and a 4 digit passcode for the system that equates to 64,000 address, and if you throw in the passcode in the mix, you could infer that there is 655 million possible combinations. I would not say it is secure like a wireless network using a 128 bit encryption. As far as homeowner feedback, this is one area where no news is good news. You know if there were problems, they would show up in posts here and everywhere. It is new so we don't have many homeowner testimonials, but no complaints with 18 months of installation has merit worth considering.

I have not fully reviewed Insteon, but my concern would be that it is not supported by any other manufacturer. I use Leviton DHC and Simply Automated UPB switches in my home. Most home automation controllers are supporting UPB and X-10. My concern about Insteon is compatibility with HAI, Elk, Home Logic, and others. I hope it is easy and compatible, my only thoughts about insteon, is "have they improved X-10" are they going to be susceptible to noise like X-10? Granted proper use of filter, couplers, and repeaters nearly always make x10 reliable.

I have enjoyed this discussion, have a nice day.

It's one thing to train others in the care and feeding of a proprietary system, it's another to understand the fundamentals of powerline communications.

The fact that you had both the X-10 frequency and voltage levels wrong and the fact that your knpwledge of UPB appears to be based on PCS press releases indicate that your grasp of the fundamentals is weak.

There is an "oscilloscope" screenshot of the UPB pulse on pp8-10 at...

You will find there are numerous things (e.g. triacs, ballasts, PF capacitors) that will put similar noise pulses on the powerline. So it's doubtful that the shape, position and frequency content of the pulse are major factors in the robustness of UPB. The fact that they use a two-way error correcting protocol probably has a far greater impact.

HAI recommends a phase coupler for all UPB installations. Why?

As I recall, UPB has a fairly low bitrate so claims that it is fast should be taken with a grain of salt.

I may be wrong but my interpretation of Cenelec rules would mean UPB is illegal in Europe. (5V maximum signal strength.)

Any talk of security for powerline or RF communications is ridiculous. Unless the system uses rolling codes it is a simple matter to capture codes and play them back - no decrypting is necessary.

That powerline communications can be robust is proven by the widespread adoption of HomePlug's broadband over powerline. PLC broadband modules are retailing in the $20 range. Should someone decide to use HompePlug for lights and appliances, it's likely to be "lights out" for PCS and X-10.

UPB may work as advertised but, so far, most of the reports here have come from dealers. There has been near zero feedback from end users. Given the high cost, it's likely to popular only with installers (if it is as robust as claimed). If the UPB computer interface could also do X-10, it would help with market penetration.

Insteon (from SmartHome) would seem to win the published specifications duel. It has a high bitrate (i.e. it's fast), uses a two-way error-correcting protocol, is backwards compatible with X-10, uses both PLC and RF, fills the network with a 2.5V signal level (each module functions as a repeater), and doesn't cost much more than X-10. It would appear to comply with Cenelec.

Aga>> 5 years? It was first announced about 2.5 years ago, first shown about a

Well we can argue this till we are blue in the face, I may not be the most knowledgeable fellow on this topic but I know enough to keep the conversation going, I know enough to teach professional dealers how to design and install it, and while I may make a typo from 121Khz to 120 KHz, fine. That your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

You are wrong here. When PCS originally shipped the light switches they were selling over $150 retail. They intentionally priced them 25% cheaper than Radio RA. The price is dropping radically if you were paying attention. Simply automated was selling switches retail around $85 a switch. now they sell a 1000watt switch for under $70. UPB is more of a professionally driven product. Programming is more diverse than X-10, and you can do a lot of tricks with UPB that the X-10 switch does not allow. It is not a hobbyist product like X-10.

Other manufacturers did a lot to the X-10 products. I would say a comment like that says you are not as knowledgeable as you pass your self off to be. Take Lightolier, They were the first company to develop and sell a solution to make a professional X-10 installation bullet proof. The compose and the firewall, virtually eliminated noise and signal quality issues, but it wasn't at a cost, the firewall cost upwards of a $1000, and they make the most expensive X-10 light switches around $100 retail. Leviton, brought Intellisense DHC (Decora Home Controls). Intellisense was an AGC circuit deigned battle the noise commonly found in residential homes. Did it work, yes it worked well, but it was not perfect. In my home I have a mix of Leviton and X-10 brand switches. I never have a problem with the Leviton DHC switches. The switches work wonderfully and the X-10 branded switches work when they want to. I dont have an option where the X-10 brands are because I want a non-dimming switch and there is no neutral present. Look at Smarthome, they are making the X-10 switches better by incorporating a dual technology. So yes other manufacturers make it better and cheaper.

Well the point is they decreased the possibility of home to home interference.

Most of the jobs, troubleshooting X-10 is more about not having filters, repeaters and couplers. On both X-10 and UPB jobs, it is usually the installer was not properly trained and did not install the switches correctly.

I'm not arguing semantics. I'm saying flat out that you do not seem to have much knowledge of the topics you are expounding on.

The fact that UPB has been licensed to other manufacturers hasn't done anything to lower the price. X-10 was also available from many manufacturers. Did that make it better?

In this context, your 4 digit password is just as secure as 128-bit encryption. Neither does a damn thing to prevent capture and playback of codes. If "rdjy5roigdpb8gv" floats your boat, it will float your boat no matter who sends it. Rolling codes are reasonably secure but are seldom used for anything other than garage doors and for arming/disarming security systems.

I'm surprised to learn that UPB systems need a paid professi>I have an excellent grasp on both X-10 and UPB, I am hired frequently to

All of which occured a few years AFTER the X-10 patent expired. Prior to that the other 'brands' that used X-10 technology were assembled on the same assembly lines as those that carried X-10 labels. Aside from the labels, they were identical (except for the CM10A made only for IBM).

Then why claim it's a security feature? If your neighbor is determined to "gaslight" you, it can be done with X-10, UPB or Z-Wave. Of course, the high price of UPB does serve as a deterrent.

And why is it that the same people who complain the most about poor X-10 signal propagation also worry so much about interference from the neighbors? I can understand it in Europe where there may be hundreds of residences sharing a utility stepdown transformer but in N. America it should be easily dealt with.

The first copy of an X-10 signal takes 11/60 of a second (0.183333333 secs). Elsewhere you've said UPB takes 1/5 second (0.2 secs). Do the math.

Lutron's Radio RA uses RF which travels at 186,000 miles per second taking .00000030547 to go 30 feet. Are you saying that Lutron repeats the signal sequentially? (Z-Wave apparently does this so the time required between any two end points depends on the number of hops required.) Even in a sequential system, most of the total time will be from the length of the code itself and Lutron RA does use a ridiculously lengthy code. Crestron crams far more information into a very short code. Insteon appears to repeat both RF and PLC in realtime so the only time involved is the length of the code which is very short. (I do not have hands-on experience with Insteon so I may be misinterpreting things.)

I'm not sure what you mean by "professional X-10". Most of the X-10 Pro modules I've seen have innards that are identical to the non-pro versions - the only difference (aside from price) being the logo on the case and terms of the warranty. Some recent modules appear to come only in Pro versions. UPB appears to cost 2-3 times non-pro X-10 list prices. Direct comparisons are difficult due to the lack of equivalent UPB devices.

The average time it takes for X-10 Extended code (Leviton, PCS, Smarthome and Others), or X-10 Compose (Lightolier only)take 3/4ths of a second. The basic X-10 code is shorter, I have never heard it being that short.

Radio RA was amazingly slow (relative to powerline carrier) of course all of this, you really only notice the delay when performing macros or stacking commands. Of course in all the technologies they have implemented scenes or groups to affect many switches at once. Lutron has repeater required every

30ft (may be 60ft after that because they claim a 30ft radius) to ensure every switch gets a signal. Other reason Radio Ra is slow is the signal must make a round trip, and delays sequential commands.

What the term "Professional" refers to in the industry are products like Leviton DHC, Smarthome, Lightolier, and other higher end X-10 products. These products have additional circuitry in them to make them more robust, and more reliable. They always require a neutral (with one exception Leviton has one DHC switch that does not require the neutral). They typically carry a 2 year warranty, and have better support. They are better choice for installers who have to deal with the call backs for customer support.

As someone who ACTUALLY has RadioRA installed, I am reasonably sure that the perceived delay is not because the signal must make a "round trip". The difference between a signal travelling 5 feet (from controller to switch),

10 feet (controller-repeater-switch) or 20 feet (controller-repeater-switch (ack) - repeater - controller) via radio wave is unlikely to be perceived by a human.

Radio waves are fast. (Now, powerline signals, on the other hand, are slower than radio signals, but I'd content that most people can't perceive them either - if you can, you probably notice 60 Hz flicker and notice the effect of electronic dimming, but I digress.)

The RadioRA "stacking" "problem" is that the switch doesn't send the second command doesn't start until the first command is acknowledged and COMPLETE. Since the default ramp rate is something like 1.5 or 2 seconds, this is the delay you see. For example, stack all the on/off commands you like to the non-dimming switches, and you wont see the effect, because those completion times are perceived as instant.

On the other hand, when I go downstairs to the den, I press the first (top) button then the second button on the controller at the top of the stairs. The stair light ramps up as I am walking down, and, about two steps from the bottom (when it hits full) the den lights are starting to come up.

This is NOT becuase the radio waves are taking too long to make a "round trip".

- B