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Re: Ubiquity wifi access point
wrote:

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Sorry, crappy photo and muddled description.  This should hopefully be
clearer:
<http://www.imagebam.com/image/3e2cbf153291435
Upper photo: NanoStation2 NSM2
Lower photo: NanoStation2 LoCo M2

--  
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Re: Ubiquity wifi access point

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As I told Rod Speed, and as I tell him again, your information trumps mine.  
I don't mind correction, as the correct answer is all that matters.

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I was afraid of that, which is a critical error on my part, but I didn't
look up the specs for the horizontal and vertical beam width at 150 feet.

This should prove to Rod Speed that your observations trump mine!

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This is an important point that the antenna needs to be relatively low
gain, just to paint the entire house.  

Wouldn't it work though, even with a nanobeam or powerbeam, if there was a
second matching antenna on the outside wall of the neighbor's house at 150
feet away?

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I concur. When I have about 12dBm between the noise level and the received
signal, I generally connect. This is better than that, by a lot (if you
assume the noise is in the -90dBm range).

Re: Ubiquity wifi access point
On Mon, 4 Sep 2017 06:41:14 +0000 (UTC), Roy Tremblay

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Probably not.  If you had one radio, a power divider, and two
antennas, you would get an antenna pattern that looks like a daisy
flower.  Lots of big lobes with giant coverage holes in between.  If
you installed two radios and two antennas on the same channel, it
would also create a rather bizarre antenna pattern.  If they were on
different channels, it would work, but then walking from one side of
the house to the other would require switching access points.

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The receiver noise level is included in the calculation of the
receiver sensitivity, which uses an SNR (signal to noise ratio) as a
reference level.  It's the RF level at which the SNR (signal to noise
ratio) is equal to the minimum necessary to obtain a BER (bit error
rate) of either 1x10^-5 or a PER (packet error rate) of 10%.  You
really don't want to operate at this level where you loose 1 packet
out of 10 packets sent, which is why the fade margin or SOM (system
operating margin) of 10-20dB is added to obtain a usable operating
level.

RF is magic.


--  
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Re: Ubiquity wifi access point
On Sat, 2 Sep 2017 21:05:51 +0000 (UTC), Roy Tremblay

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Where?  I don't see a chain link fence in the photo:
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/jgtmp97346thid4/File%202-9-17%2C%2014%2001%2044.jpeg?dl=0

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Yes.  Neither 2.4 or 5Ghz will go through a chain link fence.

--  
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Re: Ubiquity wifi access point

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I had responded from Rod Speed's words, but I didn't notice a photo
embedded in his post. When you mentioned a photo, I was, like, how did you
get a photo? Then I looked back into the thread to see Rod had kindly
posted -1000 words.  

Rod subsequently has clarified:
 "sheet metal fence. You can see it on the far right of the photo."

Rod: You have to let Jeff know the relationship of that sheet-metal fence
to the position of the radio beam, because I don't know how it will affect
the signal if it's in the primary or secondary Fresnel Zone.

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How about a solid sheet metal fence then! :)

NOTE: I can see now this is like diagnosing a medical issue over the phone,
or more like engineering a solution over the net! :)

It should work ... but ...  

Re: Ubiquity wifi access point


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I did. I am proposing to put the AP where the photo was
taken, but higher than that, about 10' off the ground there.

My current thinking is to get a Ubiquiti UAP-AC-M, or
something equivalent if someone suggests something
cheaper or better for the same price, put it on the edge
of my flat roof where the photo was taken and see how
well that works. If it isnt as good as the wifi repeater was,
move it to where the wifi repeater is, about half way
down that fence, on a pole instead of under a bucket
and that should perform as well as the wifi repeater
does and wouldn?t need continual power cycling.

If that still doesn?t work for some reason, move it
even closer to their house. All that means is some
more cat5e and a simple switch should be good
enough to provide some protection against a
lightning ground strike near there.

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The current medion wifi repeater works fine there radio wise.

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Re: Ubiquity wifi access point

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Oh. OK. Jeff is sincerely trying to help, so please do answer all his
questions faithfully. If you're putting the radio ABOVE the metal fence,
then that's different, but if the fence is, say, halfway between the radio
and the house, then it could easily be in the 12-foot high Fresnel Zone
that Jeff previously calculated.  

It's OK to be in the primary Fresnel Zone, but it sucks signal.  
As Jeff noted, painting the house with signal isn't your problem though;
your problem is that the signal that comes back out of the house is puny.

It's like a major league baseball pitcher pitching to a grade school
catcher, where the catcher can't throw the ball back to the pitcher because
the distance to the 90-foot plate is too far for him to throw back.

He can easily receive any pitch the pitcher gives him but he is too puny to
send it back.

So I don't know if the metal fence affects the return signal from the
devices in the neighbor's house or not. Jeff would know better than I, at
least theoretically.

Luckily for  you, the setup needs one radio at a minimum, so, you can test
it out, and, if it doesn't work for the return throw back of the pitch, you
can just buy another radio and then we KNOW it will work (since we
habitually connect for miles over line of sight between matching radios).
  
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I'm mostly familiar with Ubiquiti Rockets, Nanobeams/Powerbeams, and
Bullets. Jeff is a pro so he'll be more familiar with a wider range.

Looking it up, at $86 USD I'd wonder if you need a better antenna.
https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-UAP-AC-M-US-Unifi-Access-Point/dp/B01N9FIELY

I mean, seriously, the advertising for the dish stuff I've been mentioning
is in multiple kilometers, while this says "Range of up to 600'".

They all lie, but *for the same price* I'd go with something that I know
goes kilometers and that has a 30dBi antenna (e.g., my RocketDish is a
30dBi antenna).

Do you know offhand what that means?
I'll tell you.

Without using the word isotropic, it essentially means that whatever signal
it sees is "amplified" by a lot. Just 3 decibels is double the power. 10
decibels is 10 times the power. 30 decibels is 10 times 10 times 10 the
power, which is that a small signal is "amplified" one thousand times, just
by the dumb metal dish alone.

What's the dBi of that Ubiquiti UAP-AC-M access point?
I'll bet you'd be lucky to get a 10 dBi omni with that thing.

Remember: You need receiver decibels and receiver sensitivity.

If you buy something that doesn't have receiver decibels and receiver
sensitivity, that's fine - but that's what you need (given your
constraints).

Does that "thing" have receiver sensitivity and decibels advantages over
similarly priced equipment with dish and sector antennas?

Almost certainly not.


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Methinks you're going for ease of setup, which is fine, but that's a
different constraint than the fact that it has to work once it's set up,
particularly for the weak signal that will be coming back from the
neighbor's house.

Still ... it says "up to 600 feet", so, that should mean something like "at
least 150 feet, shouldn't it?

  

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Well, you "could" put a bucket router next to their bedroom window, and
that would work fine too.  I'm not joking.  

You have something like 300 feet of cable from your router to the bucket
router, so you can put a router outside their kitchen window.  

In fact, you can put that same router inside their office if it's along the
wall facing your house. So, that would work too.

All you'd need is 1 router and 150 feet of slightly buried cable.
We use the outdoor stuff that has a ground wire and metal/plastic rj45
connections.

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Well, I never used them, but Ubiquiti makes routers too, I think, which, I
think, are outdoor rated, so, you could just put a Ubiquiti router outside
somewhere unobtrusive halfway between the two homes.

You have lots of options.

My choice?
I'd spend less than $100 USD in any case.
I'd put a decent radio on my wall.
It would likely be a bullet/nanobeam/powerbeam/rocket in that order of
costs (where a rocket will cost more than $100 but the rest won't).

You can even go with a 1 watt Bullet with any planar antenna you want (you
can mix and match). I have one of those too. It works fine for distances of
about 2 miles (to another radio).

Re: Ubiquity wifi access point

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I was just reading the advertising blurb for
https://www.streakwave.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=UAP-AC-M

When the word 'discreetly' struck me as perhaps one of Rod Speed's unspoken
requirements.

Rod might not want to be advertising the whole world with an antenna the
size of a basketball hoop that he's feeing the neighbor with signal. Out
here, where I live, our homes are festooned with antennas, since no wires
but electricity and telephone come into our homes (underground, by code).

The advertising blurb for that $100 USD UAP-AC-M says:
"The UniFi AC Mesh AP is designed to *discreetly* integrate into any
environment."

What's nicer, is that Rod can use it inside his house, which is even more
discrete (cover it up with a pillowcase, for example):
"The UniFi AC Mesh AP can be used indoors or outdoors. "

And he can mount it basically anywhere:
"The UniFi AC Mesh AP can be mounted on a wall, pole"

And, best of all, he can change the antenna gain:
"or fast-mount of a Ubiquiti high-gain antenna."

So, if it has "enough" antenna gain, and receiver sensitivity, it should
work, but I do that via heuristics while Jeff actually knows what he's
doing, so, as always, Jeff's opinion trumps mine.

PS: Rod. Do you need to be "discrete"?

Re: Ubiquity wifi access point

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Nar, I don?t really care much about that, particularly when
it high enough so that some stupid kid doesn?t choose to
try and damage it or it gets damaged accidentally.

The back neighbours do sometimes have visitors into ball games etc.

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I don?t really care about that. Most would just assume
its some unusual TV antenna or satellite dish etc.

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Ours arent exactly festooned, but we don?t have cable TV here, just
free to air TV from transmitters a tens of KMs away and most have
external antennas for that and quite a few have satellite dishes too.

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Yeah, that bit suits me, plan to mount it on the wall or the
barge board above that initially and move it to a pole halfway
down the back neighours back yard if mounted on my house
doesn?t give a good enough result. It must be able to do much
better than the medion wifi repeater which doesn?t even have any
external antennas so should work fine where it works fine now.

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Nope. Would be handy to be reasonably robust so a cricket
ball from the back neighours backyard wouldn?t be a problem.

  


Re: Ubiquity wifi access point
On Sat, 2 Sep 2017 14:40:13 +1000, "Rod Speed"

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Sorry.  I should have anticipated that.  The term "beamwidth" is an
angle, not a distance, but that's not obvious and easily confused.
However, I can work with the distances:

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2 * arctan(80/150) = 56 degrees
2 * arctan(40/150) = 30 degrees

That antenna I initially found:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/281468449005
Is a tolerable fit for the 30 degree "illumination".  For 56 degree,
something with less gain and a wider beamwidth would be better.

This one is actually a sector antenna:
<http://www.terra-wave.com/shop/24-ghz-15-dbi-60-degree-sector-panel-antenna-with-nstyle-jack-connector-p-1943.html
Gain 15dBi gain.  Horiz beamwidth 60 degrees.  Vertical beamwidth 15
degrees.  Yeah, that will work.

I couldn't find an antenna that has about 60 degree beamwidth and
decent gain because it's 11PM here, very hot, I'm very tired, and my
brain doesn't seem to be fully functional.  I'll find some better
antennas tomorrow or Sunday and then the necessary fade margin
calculations to see if the connection will be reliable.

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That doesn't looks better than I expected.  Most of the loss will be
in the brick.  By veneer, is it a full size brick 225 x 112.5 x 75 mm
or one that has been sliced thinner?  We have both types in the USA.
"Reflection and Transmission Losses Through Common Building Materials"
<http://www.am1.us/Protected_Papers/E10589_Propagation_Losses_2_and_5GHz.pdf
See losses at 2.4 and 5GHz on Pg 9.  There are other charts that are
probably easier to understand.  Regular red brick is about -4.5dB
loss.  Drywall is about -0.5dB.  I won't count the wood studs because
2.4Ghz will go nicely between the studs and fire blocks.  So, the loss
is -5.5dB which means about 1/4th of your power is lost in the bricks,
which equates to cutting the range in half.  Not good, but I think the
antenna gain will compensate for this loss.  Math tomorrow.

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Both good.  Uncoated glass is very RF transparent.  Composition board
isn't very lossy.

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You win.


Except for the disconnects.  I'm not familiar with Medion but will
look over what's available on the internet.  I really don't like
repeaters, but this is not the time for an anti-repeater rant.

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You can build your own VPN.  Many home routers now have the ability to
terminate a VPN.  If your neighbor's traffic is all inside the VPN
tunnel, they won't see your traffic outside the tunnel, and you won't
see theirs inside the tunnel.  I use these, which have the VPN
feature.
<https://www.asus.com/us/Networking/RTAC66U/
with this alternative firmware:
<https://asuswrt.lostrealm.ca
"Advanced OpenVPN client and server, based on code originally written
by Keith Moyer for Tomato and reused with his permission."

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One of my customers has a 25Mbit/sec cable plan.  The husband fires up
his Roku box and streams Netflix (in HD).  His wife watches stuff on
YouTube Red.  The two daughters are on their various iPads and older
MacBook streaming kids cartoons from somewhere.  I get a call asking
how to improve performance.  I get them to increase their speed to
50Mbits/sec.  That worked for about 6 months and now they're out of
bandwidth again.  Your neighbor might start with just background
music, but I'm sure will graduate to something more consumptive.

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The trees in the photo look good.  Even if the big branches sprouted
leaves, they would probably not be in the way.  I think you're ok with
blockage problems.  Just try to keep the AP antenna at your end as
high as possible.

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No need for an app.  Looks like they support every conceivable type of
streaming audio:
<http://2smsupernetwork.com/listen-live/
AAC via VLC media player plugin for Firefox works for me:
<http://s2.viastreaming.net:7100/listen.pls
VLC shows a bit rate varying from 30 to 50 Kbit/sec which is trivial
compared to your available bandwidth.  As long as that's all the
traffic, it won't be a problem.

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That shouldn't be a problem.  Your 2SM stream does NOT work like
Pandora.  It's a continuous low speed stream, not a high speed burst.

I think you're ok but I want to grind the numbers to be sure.  Give a
day or two to get some other stuff done first and bug me if I forget.

  
--  
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Re: Ubiquity wifi access point

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As Jeff is well aware, the "strangest things" will block signal, where Jeff
is talking about the bricks above, and where Jeff mentioned the window
glass out here is basically a brick wall to radio waves (in my very humble
but very direct and irrefutable experience).  

Another thing that has accidentally killed my signal has been a large
mirror where I couldn't get much signal into a room where signal was
everywhere else as measured nicely by my Android phone utilities.

Turned out the mirror was most of the culprit (maybe pipes too) in a large
bathroom between my access point and the bedroom where I was trying to get
iDevices to be happy.

So note to Rod - check out where the neighbor hangs largish mirrors in the
direction between your house and theirs.

Re: Ubiquity wifi access point

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Rod Speed,

You're in good hands with Jeff as he's a good guy, and he never says BS  
(although he'll deny being a good guy) :) ... where he's forgotten more  
about WiFi WISP networking than I ever knew.

All I ask is that you faithfully answer Jeff's technical questions, so that  
Jeff can get the answers you need.

His recommendations trump mine.

Good luck!  

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