X10 -> UPB?

This right here isn't clear. They only say Tframe which is not defined.

At least it's not TBD like so many other sections of the document.

Sure. That makes sense.

-jr

Well.. I just purchased a bunch of UPB stuff. Once I get it installed and play around with it, I'll be sure to post a review of the products.

-jr

I added UPB to my store when they were shipping. I have since sold alot and everyone has nothing but positive comments on them. Several repeat customers already.

Tuesday 29 March, 2005

wkearney99,

Not sure what I did to upset you. Certainly didn't mean to.

We've been shipping the Simply Automated UPB products since 12/8/04.

Martin Custer

PCSLighting was shipping direct to dealers as far back as November 2003 at a minimum. I assisted on an install with an electrician in Olympia Washington, in a 4 room bed and breakfast. That is also when PCS started seeking distributors.

UPB in comparison is in the middle to high end cost of X-10. Lightolier probably takes the crown for the most expensive X-10 switch. Simply automated has the least expensive UPB switch which is in the price range of your Leviton, Smarthome etc.. But definitely cheaper than Lightolier compose. (X-10). PCS switches are more expensive than any X-10 switch I am aware of. However Rumor has it PCS will be bringing some new tricks out of the bag in the coming months to differentiate themselves in the UPB market.

What Kurt is referring to is there are actually 3 versions of the X-10 protocol.

The basic protocol used in X-10 and X-10 Pro has the basic command set takes somewhere around .4-.5 seconds for transmission. The switches themselves are dumb, in that they do not have memory for last dim level, the do not support soft on (meaning they snap on, instead of ramp on to preserves bulb life). These switches are basically a push button operation, the decora style switches usually operate the same way as a toggle switch. Their cost is usually $30 and under. They support the following commands: -On -Off -Bright -Dim.

Leviton introduces X-10 Extended code. Their transmission is longer around ..75 seconds, but allows for additional functions. These switches have a memory. They will turn back on to the last dim level used, they ramp up to the brightness in less than 2 seconds to preserve bulb life. Their switches actually perform like a rocker switch should. Smarthome MFG actually makes a toggle switch, that moves up and down. Their cost range from $25 to $75 Supports: -On -Off -Bright (they work as go up 10%) -Dim. (down 10%) -Level (goto exact percentage brightness, I.E. goto 73%) -Ramp (ramp means the light ramps to the specified brightness over a long period of time maximum I believe is 2 hours), Only a few manufacturers support Ramp, I know PCS does not sure of others. -Toggle (change state) -Scenes, Leviton developed scenes so one transmission would turn on multiple lights to preset brightness levels stored in the switch.

Lightolier has their own protocol called "Compose". Rather similar to Extended code, takes about .75 seconds for transmission, support the same command set, but what makes Compose different, was Lightolier approached it as a dedicated lighting control system where individual light switch control was less of a concern as whole home scene control, or room scene control. What really makes the protocol different is that all the light switches in a room will use the same address. Yes you read that right all switches in say the living room would be set to E-3 for example. Remember individual lighting control was less of a concern and scene was more of a concern. these switches would store up to 12 light settings, and from a control pad you would issue a scene. they would all respond to that scene based on what was programmed. Lightolier also made switches for areas not part of a scene and would have a separate address than any other switch in the home. Lightolier also developed a firewall to increase the reliability of Compose, and virtually eliminate noise effecting the lighting circuits. It was expensive and required planning during new construction, but it was cheaper than most high end lighting systems.

On a side note, UPB has trump both Extended and Compose by combining the features of both protocols into their new protocol.

Martin,

He was taking shots at me, not at you.

Thanks for the date. There have been a couple of posters who have said UPB devices have been available for several years. I've countered that they've been shipping for less than a year and that most of the reports posted here have been from dealers/installers rather than end users.

I've also written that I expect UPB will likely prove robust (given that it's two-way with ACK/NAK) and be popular with installers. I think the question that is still unanswered is whether the higher cost is justified and that's really up to each user to decide.

There have been several new technologies >wkearney99,

I agree, why throw out something that works, I think many homeowner are shifting to a controller in their home. Weather it be HAI, HomeSeer, HAL2000, Elk, JDS Stargate. All manufacturers are supporting UPB and X-10. With an HAI omni Pro II or the Omni II, your house can have both X-10 and UPB and as the homeowner you would not know which is which, and they will all work. That is a great thing about these home controllers, you don't have to get rid of everything you have, you can just start migrating to newer technologies.

While I have the best hopes for Insteon and some of the other RF systems, who supports them on a home control side? That would be my first question about these new technologies. If Insteon RF can be controlled by X-10 commands great, but seems like a lot of extra work than just using X-10. I may be corrected by this on one of these controllers, but non to my knowledge support Insteon, Zigbee or any of the other new technologies. I am sure once the industry adopt a standard these controllers will support the technologies. Software based systems because they are faster to adopt will support sooner, but I don't trust my home to operate on any system that brands the word Microsoft. I don't mind auxiliary things like HAL2000, Weblink, and other software based systems, but my primary controller will be a hardware system that I don't have to reboot.

Back to my main point, I still plan to use my Leviton X-10 switches they are great, but any new ones will be UPB because of their flexibility and programmability, and the plug-in modules are cheap for X-10. I have an Omni Pro II, and I can control both systems, and my guests and family don't have to care what X-10 or UPB means or how it affects them...

While I think it is fun to discuss the engineering side of things, most people don't care about pulses, they just want to know it works. Time has shown that UPB is reliable, and blows X-10 out of the water when you discuss programmability, and functionality. Marshall and Stan at PCS developed this technology in 1999, and have tested the system extensively over the last 5 years. My first retail install was with an electrician who bought direct from PCS in November of 2003, and the home works great. They only known problem found involved a retro install with a Lutron Graphic Eye system, due to its proprietary wiring and system. The cool thing I like about UPB is I can control and set every single aspect of the switch via software. some examples include, led control including the color, minimum dim levels, link commands (scenes), multiple loads (2 max) from one switch (like bathroom light and fan 2 switches one gang), the list goes on. HAI has developed for simplicity and programs the switch from the keypad or touchscreen, enter the switch into setup (press the top side of the rocker 5 times) and touch config on the touchscreen, and move to the next switch.

Now I am not saying UPB is for everyone, and every light. I still use and recommend X-10 for certain situations and budgets. However for someone entering into lighting control, UPB brings simplicity and reliability, and not having to worry about if you have that certain Maytag dryer, Sony TV, or any of the other X-10 issues.

By the way why don't you just send PCS an email about your question? They are very easy to talk to and ask questions?

Is UPB really more expensive? In comparing switches w/ similiar capabilities (true rocker, scenes, etc.), I think the new UPB switches are running right in the middle of the pack compared to PCS SmartSwitch, SmartLinc, Lightolier, etc. If you are saying that they are more expensive that stock X10 switches, then that is true. But that is an apples to oranges comparison.

Note -- I am an end user w/ NO vested interest in any particular product discussed here.

Kurt

Which of the switches you've listed have you used?

All of the switches you listed (except UPB) use X-10's PLC protocol so all would appear to be oranges vs. one apple.

NOTE: I use none of the above - I think they all cost too much. And I think the market differentiation from all of the recently new technologies is unlikely to result in lower prices. However, a HomePlug based technology (viable worldwide, no new wire) has the potential to be more robust and lower in cost than anything now available.

I do use X-10 based modules.

I have used PCS, SwitchLinc (corrected my error above), and Leviton in a previous house. I am currently evaluating what to use in our new house.

I may have misundersood your previous comment. I read it as you saying that UPB (new technology) is more expensive than X10 in general. I was just trying to point out that for similiar functionality, they are about the same price. Now, no manufacturer of UPB devices seem to be developing a bare-bones basic switch that competes against the $10 X10 switches -- I don't know if they ever will.

Kurt

[snip]

I think there is one important point. X-10 lamp & appliance modules are dirt cheap. A lot of people would like to be able to continue using them while slowly phasing in a more robust system. UPB doesn't allow that so its "all or nothing" unless you want two different control systems.

X-10 also has wireless controls which are, so far, missing from UPB. I get around with difficulty, leaning on a crutch or walker. With a few exceptions (kitchen sink, bathrooms) I haven't touched a wall switch in years, controlling nearly everything wirelessly.

If I were in your shoes, building anew, the one question I would like answered is how UPB distinguishes the UPB "pulse" from similarly shaped

40-50V triac noise pulses? Perhaps there's enough difference in the frequency content of the UPB "pulse" vs. other noise pulses but I'm dubious.

Also, I think it's a risky strategy to use a noise pulse as a data element. While I recognize that one person's "noise" is another's rock'n'roll, when everyone else in the world is trying to filter out things that look like this I wonder how long it will be before we'll be reading about UPB signal suckers.

Q. When will products be shipping? A. They have been shipping since January of 2004. As of September 2004, PulseWorx is currently the only complete UPB compatible lighting system available.

Q. How long have PulseWorx products been available? A. PulseWorx products have been available since January 2004, although they have been in trial in residential homes for two years prior to their initial release.

"Brett Griff>PCSLighting was shipping direct to dealers as far back as November 2003 at a

There is ONE evolving version of the X-10 PLC protocol. It is documented on the X-10 web site in xtc798.doc which I have reformatted as a text file (making it far more readable) and made available here...

It has features which have yet to be implemted (AFAIK).

Leviton did NOT introduce extended code. X-10 introduced it with the LM14A which remembers its last setting and incorporates scenes and the AM14A. Leviton merely called it something else which thoroughly confused the issue. Leviton didn't quite understand it and ADI's initial implementation for the CPU-XA worked only with Leviton's version until I helped them straighten it out - buying a Leviton switch and testing PICs that Dan Boone Fed Ex'd to me. (This is not the only time that Leviton's implementation of the X-10 protocol did not get things exactly right.)

Both PCS Scenemasters and early *L>What Kurt is referring to is there are actually 3 versions of the X-10 >protocol.

Mostly because I'm still awaiting a response to my questions from 2-3 years ago. I'm just too old and in too poor health to go that route. ;)

Wow! So your answer to the guy who thinks a $75 switch is pricey is to recommend a $1000 controller.

You really should learn about the Ocelot.

That is the situation I am in. I am currently installing an OmniProII. This will allow me to still use the X10 appliance/lamp modules for things like Christmas lighting control, and other misc. applications where the features and reliability of UPB are not needed. My only issue is with noise / interference. From what I have heard, it is not an issue for UPB devices. However, if I am to use some mix of X10, I will have to "noise-proof" the house. That was the biggest pain in the previous house and I really don't want to go through that again. That will play into the decision whether or not I use a mix of X10 and UPB, or just bite the bullet and go straight UPB. For me personally, the lack of wireless control is not a big issue, however if it were, integrating a wireless solution into the OmniProII would not be that big of a deal.

Kurt

Did you by any chance rip them the way you did ELK's engineers when you were unable to understand their technology? That might explain their reluctance to answer your questions.