Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it?

Yes.

Mine doesn't. (clock version 4.5.2)

Mine doesn't. (WiFi Analyzer version 3.9.10-L)

If an app wants 'location' it asks me to change the settings.

That was your first question in this post.

To change to the local time of the location you are at.

While a clock app *might* need to know the GPS location in order to figure out what time zone it's in, "my" clock is doing fine without having access to the GPS location.

Of course, I haven't changed time zones in the past two days, but, there

*is* a "Date and time" setting in Android 4.3: XXXXX

Notice that I have set: [x] Automatic date and time (Use network-provided time) [x] Automatic time zone (Use network-provided time zone)

So, um, er ... can't the clock get the time and time zone from the so-called "network-provided" time and time zone?

If the clock is not getting the time and time zone from the network, how does it get the *time* merely from the GPS location? [It can't.]

Thanks for honestly answering the question.

I'm on Android 4.3 which allows App Ops Starter to control permissions. I think App Ops Starter doesn't work with 4.4 (from memory, so I could be wrong), and that it's not needed in 5.0 and above.

Do you know if that's true?

Thanks for letting me know that.

The only reason an Android clock might need the location is for automatic time-zone correction - but - doesn't the clock get the time from the carrier signal?

My clock seems to be version 3.0 and it *does* seem to want the location.

So, why would we need Timezone correction if the carrier signal is

*already* corrected?

I guess we need to ask two questions to answer that:

1. How does Android get its time (in the notification bar)?
2. How does the clock app get its time?

Are these two methods the same or different?

Again, thanks for the input. There is a pattern here.

My WiFi Analyzer does ask for permission, and it's version 3.9.

So your versions are all slightly newer than mine. Maybe the app developers had an epiphany between your OS and mine?

Thanks for that input. In my case, location is asked by the map apps, but not necessarily by the clock app or ES File Explorer, or the WiFi Analyzer.

I'm not sure what that tells me, but it makes sense that if an app truly

*needs* the location, that it should simply *ask* for the location access at the time it needs it.

It seems you have a *different* Android OS than I do, and certainly your apps are newer, so, that's probably the distinction.

It will be interesting to see how others fare on whether their basic apps ask for location permission or not and whether people manually grant that access or not.

I forgot to include the screenshot:

Notice that I have set: [x] Automatic date and time (Use network-provided time) [x] Automatic time zone (Use network-provided time zone)

I don't know where the clock app gets its time and time zone from, but it would seem to me it would just need to get it from the system clock and system location, which can be provided by the carrier, it seems.

Good question. I tested that on a fair collection of old Android smartphones. The smartphone clock was set by cellular clock and not by the GPS. For example, if I put my current Moto G phone into Airplane mode, but with the GPS on and running, the clock will drift at an alarming rate. The internal clock drift is really awful, because it doesn't need to be accurate since it has the cellular clock to keep it accurate.

Next, I turned off the GPS and Cellular, but enabled Wi-Fi. I connected to my office router and waited for the expected clock correction. Nope. No NTP (network time protocol) anywhere in sight. That kinda makes sense because there's nowhere in the Android settings to specify an NTP server.

Bottom line is that if you want an accurate clock, you need to leave cellular turned on.

Incidentally, there's a bit of a problem between the GPS and UTC time on some phones (in this case an old Droid X2): Nothing much is broken unless you're doing astronomy, navigation, or surveying with your smartphone: The problem was fixed on most smartphones long ago, but the problem keeps reappearing on even new phones:

Where there's a pattern, there must also be a conspiracy.

"Everything every Android Developer must know about new Android's Runtime Permission"

If you have rooted your Android device, and have adb installed, run: $ adb shell pm list permissions -d -g for a list of apps showing the current permissions. I don't have a rooted device handy, so I can't post some typical output.

There are also apps for managing permissions:

I did some more digging and found that some Android runtimes have an NTP server hard coded into the firmware. Specifically the stock version has 2.android.pool.ntp.org buried in the binary. See line

820 in: The OEM versions might use other servers. There's also some question as to whether any of these Android phones actually use a hard coded NTP server. I suspect not.

Thanks Jeff. What I love about *your* responses is that you *back up* what you say.

So, you can be *believed* because you have credibility.

I believe you when you say that the Android clock gets its time zone and time from the carrier signal.

And, the fact you *tested* that (on WiFi) is great proof of that. And, that GPS doesn't help the clock drift (I can't see how it would since the admittedly extremely accurate atomic clock *in* the satellite isn't sending *that* signal to the phone, is it?).

That confirms what I had thought. So, in effect, the clock (and all those other apps) don't *need* location access.

So why do they bother to force users (who don't know any better) to allow location access when the clock (system) app is first installed by the manufacturer?

What *advantage* is it to the clock app, or to the system manufacturer (who installed the clock app in the first place) to *require* location access?

Makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to you?

What do they gain? What can they do with it in a clock app?

That list brings up something that always confused me about App Ops Starter (com.schurich.android.tools.appopsstarter) reports on "course location, fine location" as can be seen in "Email" and "Firefox" on the screenshot below:

When I look at Firefox', it has a *switch* to turn off access location:

But, when I look at Email, it does *not* have that switch:

Can someone explain: a. Why do both Email & Firefox say "fine location, course location" but only Firefox can be turned off with App Ops Starter?

b. What is the *difference* between "fine location" and "course location" anyway (with respect to location-access permissions)?

It may do fine, but that doesn't mean that the designer of the clock programmed it that way. As there are location services in the system, and network time (notice: telephone network, not internet) is not always accurate, if I were the programmer I would also ask the system for the current location.

Yes, so what? That it can does not mean it does. As I said, if I were programming for Android I would use anything I have available that I like. I know that I'm not breaking any privacy, so do it.

Telephone network time is known to be problematic, anyway.

The WiFi analyzer may need to know what country it is in, because the law changes, and with it the channels that are available. The application may thus autoconfigure to only listen in the legal channels for the current country.

Just one reason it occurred to me.

Depending on the Android version, permissions are requested at install time or at runtime.

Demographic information (where your customers are located) is very important for marketing a product, even as small as a smartphone app. It's also useful for targeting ad campaigns by location. Location information is also valuable to marketing research firms, that pay well for such data.

Perhaps they want to send a GPS guided missile to your last known location and exterminate you and the neighborhood for failing to meet their financial expectations?

Information is power (and money). More information is more power (and money).

I think it was originally the various free flashlight apps that were just crammed with data sucking features that would collect data on almost everything they could find on your phone. A 20 MByte flashlight app is almost certain to be doing something evil behind the curtains. So, why did they bother? Because the information was valuable.

The one I liked best was the flashlight app that groveled through the users pictures and videos skimming for the EXIF data, which included the GPS lat-long when the photo was taken. That's a fairly good history of where you've been (and when you were there). Anyway, pretend that you're evil and devious (like me). Think of what you can deduce from the metadata (everything except the actually file) on your smartphone.

Fun and Games: Click on some of the sample photos: I just uploaded a dumb photo and was presented with my location when the photo was taken. Nice.

Topic drift: This should pin your paranoia meter to full scale: "Lenovo, Intel, and PayPal Team On Fingerprinting Tech For Online Payments"

Spelling error? Ie, coarse location?

it already does with apple pay and android pay.

Oooooops. Mea culpa. That's a good catch, especially since "course location" could mean something in and of itself.

App Ops Starter lists it as: "coArse location, fine location".

So, the confusing set of observations are: a. Some apps list just "coarse location" b. Some apps list just "fine location"

c. Others list both "coarse location, fine location" d. Yet others list "GPS, coarse location, fine location".

What's the difference between: A. GPS B. Coarse location C. Fine location

Also, why is there a button only for "Location", and, why, sometimes, is there no button for location even when it asks for any of the above? SWITCH:

NOSWITCH:

Even worse, some also list in the "location" field: D. wifi scan E. cell scan

Does any of this make sense to you (plural you)?

I agree with you Jeff, that knowing *where* you are when you run the clock app (and the other apps that I mentioned, such as ES File Explorer) is useful to *them*; but location has nothing to do with *most* of the apps that I have that require it.

That's why I asked if YOU (plural you) turn off location access in all the apps that don't need it (which is the vast majority of the ones that require it, IMHO).

That would be bad news for the Santa Cruz mountains! Maybe I can spoof *your* location instead. You're only a dozen miles distant over the hill! :)

Yup. But that's why I asked if everyone else turns *off* the location access of their apps that don't need it!

Heh heh ... I use Exifer and other proggies on Linux but that site is useful for all the chest-and-baby photos I get from Anthony Wiener when I pose as a 15 year old girl. :)

Yikes. My old single-USB-port WinXP laptop may have to be retired some day, so that I can get fingerprinted while I type my next Usenet post!

I don't know the precise or official definition, but I can give you an educated guess.

GPS uses only the GPS receiver.

Coarse uses only the GSM network and WiFi/IP guessing by google. Ie, Cell, GeoIP and Wifi location. The error can be kilometres, thus coarse location. Sometimes it is surprisingly precise. Also called "low battery mode" or something similar. It is the one I use.

Fine location uses both methods. I guess that by having a coarse location first, and by knowing the timetable of the satellite passes, it decides what satellites to search for, instead of trying all of them.

LOL. So that you choose always the preferred method, "fine location".

Designer choice. What a question!

Well, it is just an accurate description of what it does. Wifi and Cell is what together do "coarse location". Again, designer choice to list them all instead of the switch name.

It would still be needed in 5. But not in 6 and above which allow you to deny permissions in settings, no app required.

My Maps app (version 9.36.2) wants access to contacts, location, phone, and storage. I leave them all off. So far no app complaints for just bringing up a map. If I want turn by turn directions then I'd of course need location on.

IMO that would be a hassle for people who aren't as paranoid as we are.

My map app is My Trails (Pro): It wants to use GPS, modify SD card, add|find|use accounts, full network access, run at startup, prevent phone from sleeping, and vibrator. I'm not so sure about the accounts stuff, but the rest doesn't look too horrible.

No turn by turn needed or wanted. I rarely listen to instructions from anyone and certainly don't plan to start doing so with instructions from a machine. Incidentally, anyone trying to use a GPS map device to find a usable route to my house is sure to get lost. There are roads on the maps that don't exist which the mapping programs never fail to use as the preferred route.