Beginner needs help

I'll soon be traveling in my motor home and want to try WiFi but I am a total beginner.

I want a high gain external antenna. I can attach the antenna to my TV antenna so it rotates, but I have no control over vertical or horizontal rotation. Do some WiFi locations use vertical polarization and other horizontal polarization? Any recommendations?

I want high power and am looking at the Senao / Engenius NL-2511 CD+EXT2 card. Is this a good choice? Any other recommendations?

I think I saw some software that helps locate WiFi locations. Is there any free software? Or recommendations?

Thanks for any help,

Dennis

Reply to
Dennis Vogel
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Most use vertical polarization. The Engenius is a 200mw card which is 23db so the max legal antenna would be a 13dbi = 36 or 4 watts for a point to point configuration. The 200mw is really your transmit power and what you are going to be interested in mostly is receive power so I would go for a bit higher gain antenna and a bit less radio. If you want to really get it going try one of these

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with a

100mw radio = 34 db. Problem is, yoou might not want to drive around with it up....:0). Orinoco are a really good card too.

Netstumbler is probaly the software you want......its free

Reply to
TechMeister

Welcome to "Learn by Destroying". You've come to the right place.

Why? Are you going for the DX distance record? Perhaps you expect to find yourself too far from the hot spot? High gain antennas are a big help, but have some limitations. The big one is that they require fairly low loss coax cables and weird "pigtail" adapters. Low loss implies either fairly short thin cables, or longer big fat inflexible ugly cables.

Yes, but most of the hot spots are vertically polarized. Horizontal polarization tends to used by point to point links (in order to minimize interference with other users).

Maybe you are going for the distance record. Yes, the Senao cards are quiet good on both the power output and receiver sensitivity. The offer a suitable connector for attaching a pigtail, coax, and then antenna. However, you have a problem. Your radio and antenna are going to be rather seperated by many feet of coax. That's very lossy. You may find that all the money you spent getting a high power radio is wasted in the coax loss. The antenna gain can help recover some of that, but methinks keeping the loss low would be best.

The NL-2511 CD+EXT2 is a PCMCIA card which will need to used in a laptop. Do you have a laptop? Visualize a 1ft piece of 1/8"D flexible coax cable coming out of the PCMCIA card, connecting to a

1/2"Dia LMR-400 stiff coax cable going to the roof. Do you really want that?

Methink you find a USB radio more useful. Instead of a big fat lossy coax cable run to the roof, you have a considerably smaller USB cable. The official maximum run for USB is 16ft which methinks should be sufficient. The radio would be mounted in some kind of waterproof package (plastic electrical outdoor box). The RF will go right through the plastic box, so no need for an extra antenna. You may need to solder a pigtail to the radio if you insist on a high gain antanna. The big advantage of USB is that the radios are cheaper than other forms.

If 16ft or the insipid power output is an issue, there are also ethernet connected radios. (WAP54G, DWL900AP+, DWL-2100AP, etc) that have a "client bridge" mode. There's also a class of device called "game adapters" that will do the same thing. Instead of USB cable, you have an ethernet cable. The boxes usually (not always) have external RF connectors that will go to your high gain antenna. You'll need to supply power to the box, usually via a PoE adapter or just with a seperate pair of wires to the power connector. As before, some repackaging will be required.

You can also buy pre-packaged antenna/radio combinations designed for outdoor use. See:

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the Client Premisis Equipment section. These are rather expensive which is why many users roll their own.
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is actually an access point, not a client radio, but the construction and technology are similar).

I'll assume Windoze as Mac and Linux users usually specify what OS they're using.

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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Thanks Jeff, a lot of good information. Thanks to Techmeister too.

Dennis

Welcome to "Learn by Destroying". You've come to the right place.

Why? Are you going for the DX distance record? Perhaps you expect to find yourself too far from the hot spot? High gain antennas are a big help, but have some limitations. The big one is that they require fairly low loss coax cables and weird "pigtail" adapters. Low loss implies either fairly short thin cables, or longer big fat inflexible ugly cables.

Yes, but most of the hot spots are vertically polarized. Horizontal polarization tends to used by point to point links (in order to minimize interference with other users).

Maybe you are going for the distance record. Yes, the Senao cards are quiet good on both the power output and receiver sensitivity. The offer a suitable connector for attaching a pigtail, coax, and then antenna. However, you have a problem. Your radio and antenna are going to be rather seperated by many feet of coax. That's very lossy. You may find that all the money you spent getting a high power radio is wasted in the coax loss. The antenna gain can help recover some of that, but methinks keeping the loss low would be best.

The NL-2511 CD+EXT2 is a PCMCIA card which will need to used in a laptop. Do you have a laptop? Visualize a 1ft piece of 1/8"D flexible coax cable coming out of the PCMCIA card, connecting to a 1/2"Dia LMR-400 stiff coax cable going to the roof. Do you really want that?

Methink you find a USB radio more useful. Instead of a big fat lossy coax cable run to the roof, you have a considerably smaller USB cable. The official maximum run for USB is 16ft which methinks should be sufficient. The radio would be mounted in some kind of waterproof package (plastic electrical outdoor box). The RF will go right through the plastic box, so no need for an extra antenna. You may need to solder a pigtail to the radio if you insist on a high gain antanna. The big advantage of USB is that the radios are cheaper than other forms.

If 16ft or the insipid power output is an issue, there are also ethernet connected radios. (WAP54G, DWL900AP+, DWL-2100AP, etc) that have a "client bridge" mode. There's also a class of device called "game adapters" that will do the same thing. Instead of USB cable, you have an ethernet cable. The boxes usually (not always) have external RF connectors that will go to your high gain antenna. You'll need to supply power to the box, usually via a PoE adapter or just with a seperate pair of wires to the power connector. As before, some repackaging will be required.

You can also buy pre-packaged antenna/radio combinations designed for outdoor use. See:

formatting link
in the Client Premisis Equipment section. These are rather expensive which is why many users roll their own.
formatting link
(this is actually an access point, not a client radio, but the construction and technology are similar).

I'll assume Windoze as Mac and Linux users usually specify what OS they're using.

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-- Jeff Liebermann snipped-for-privacy@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us 150 Felker St #D

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Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

Reply to
Dennis Vogel

Jeff, thanks again. I'm starting over. Sounds like I need a USB box and about 10 or 12 feet of USB connector.

I can put the USB box in a cabinet just inches from the roof and a fixed antenna. From what you say it sounds like that would work a lot better.

Can you recommend a decent vertical antenna?

Can you recommend a USB WiFi box? And where to purchase these items?

Dennis

Reply to
Dennis Vogel

As an RVer in this area, you will find one of three situations:

1- You are stopped near a McDonald's or Starbucks where the signal is strong enough that you don't need a high gain antenna. 2- You are in a campground that provides WiFi in the park. Here an external antenna would be useful, not necessarily a high gain antenna. 3- You are roadside, or in a campground with no WiFi. Without cooperation from the WiFi source, like a high gain antenna pointed in your direction, you are probably out of luck. Signal probably won't go past the limits of the RV park.

#3 is a guess, and could collide with the experience of some signal poachers, but I suspect the range is no more than a half mile.

#1 and #2 are both satisfied by a USB adapter, like Jeff suggests. Maybe permanently mounted outside, maybe just run out through the roof vent when you want it.

#1 Starbucks or McDonald's require a subscription. #2 might be subscription, but is most likely pay-per-night. #2 might be expensive enough that you hang out at a McDonald's to get your internet fix every day or so.

SBC/Yahoo just announced a $1.99 per month add-on for WiFi for their existing DSL customers which covers some McDonalds, but I see you are with Earthlink. If you have T-Mobile cellular, they have an add-on covering Starbucks.

If you subscribe, you have some locator guides as to where to expect the next WiFi outlet. I used to stay at KOA Kampgrounds when travelling on ad-hoc vacations for the same reason. I could find a reasonable campground in roughly the area where I wanted to be the next night.

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shows wireless KOA sites, powered by
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which is a subscription service that has locations at KOA and some trendy coffee shops.

Reply to
dold

Don't put the USB device in a "box" made of wood - just plastic would be OK. but you want it positioned with the least amount of "stuff" - wood, RV shell, cabinets, etc - between the antenna and the signal. (That includes trees between you and the access Point.)

You can get powered USB extensions that allow you to go up to 80 feet or so with "active USB cabling"

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Consider getting a USB adapter that also allows for an optional external antenna. That way you could add on an external antenna if necessary. Or you could buy a less expensive USB adapter initially and if it does not prove successful, dump it and get one allowing an external antenna.
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Of course, if you go with an external antenna, you want to minimize the coax length to reduce power loss. Suggest you look at pigtails and antennas at
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Now if you wanted to go low-cost and low-tech, you could configure a DIY "tin cantenna" - a do-it-yourself antenna made out of a relatively low cost USB dongle (such as the 802.11b D-Link DWL-122 - about $10 if you shop around - w/ 7 ft extension cable.) and an old empty 11 oz coffee can. Of course you have to do some positioning if the signal is weak, but if the signal is weak, you will do that anyway. (Maybe a DIYtripod or portable holder for when you place it out a top vent??)

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Good luck!

Reply to
Bob Alston

Yeah, methinks that would would work. I still prefer the ethernet client radios instead of USB because of the ease of connecting external antennas. However, others have pointed out reflector type antennas (coffee cans, tuna cans, sheet aluminium, carboard covered with aluminium foil, etc). Lots of fun playing with antennas.

Well, by "cabinet" I hope its something RF transparent (plastic, pvc, glass) and not wood, concrete, or anything that might get waterlogged.

2.4GHz does not go through water or anything wet. However, that applies only if you use an internal (patch) antenna. If the antenna is external, whatever you want.

Sure, but you need to tell me how far you wanna go, over what kind of terrain, whether you have line of sight, and some clue as to hardware on both ends. They, we do a fade margin calculation:

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see how reliable the connection will be. 10dB is the absolute minimum fade margin. An omni antenna will be the easiest to deploy and install, but since you have a rotator, why not use it? Look at patch (panel) or reflector (dish) type antennas:
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I have a few customers in trailer parks and have a little experience in making them work. The metal boxes are pure hell as they create reflections that cause multipath problems. I found that shooting across the trailer rooftops is a loser. The best results so far was hanging the radio in a nearby tree, about 4 ft above the roof line. That was a ethernet client radio, not USB as the cable would have been too long. I've had to use directional antennas not to get sufficient gain to talk to a distant access point, but to reduce or eliminate the reflections caused by bounces from behind the antenna. An omni will pickup these reflections with equal strength, while a directional antenna will pickup almost nothing from behind the antenna pattern.

I'm not sure what to recommend. I prefer the tiny "dongle" type of USB radios because they are easy to modify and install at the focus of a dish, coffee can, or other reflector. The larger boxes are easier to mount on a roof (inside a plastic NEMA box), but require soldering to attach a pigtail. I have a Netgear MA-101 USB radio that I use with Netstumbler in the car to map access points. I also have a Dlink DWL-122 for the same purpose. I really can't recommend any USB radio simply because I don't use them enough to get sufficient experience.

Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Jeff - A bit more about what "ethernet" connected radios can be used in place of USB? Any that easily (no soldering) support external antennas

Reply to
Bob Alston

Thanks everyone for the great help. I settled on a YDI USB-Ant 2.4GHz 18dBi Flat Panel USB Antenna.

I'm hoping to get free Internet access from time to time in my travels. Once every three days will do.

Dennis

Reply to
Dennis Vogel

$169.00 for the YDI? The mini-usb in a can would be less than $30.

Hawking HWU54D Hi-Gain Wireless-G Directional USB 2.0 Network Adapter

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Directional 6dBi WiFi Antenna with a built in HWU54G Wireless-G USB2.0 Network Adapter is ~$60.

Netstumbler would be your friend. Some libraries and some hotels offer free service to their guests. If I only wanted access for an hour or two every three days, I'd be inclined toward parking in Starbucks parking lots.

Reply to
dold

Yeah, it's expensive, but it works. Let's play dollars and sense with the do it thyself method.

USB radio $50 (Netgear WG111) USB extension cable 10ft $10 18dBi panel antenna $50 (Fab-Corp) Outdoor NEMA 4 box $18 Pigtail (RG-188 to N-male) $12 Misc (mounting hardware) $10 ===== $150 Close enough.

6dBi antenna gain is about what you'll get with a PCB substrate patch antenna. Even a coffee can is better than that. 8dBi is what an elevated patch antenna will deliver. 14dBi is about what you'll get with 4 of patch antennas on a panel. Would you put that Hawking radio on the roof of a camper? Waterproof?
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

An "ethernet" connected radio is just a client radio. Many access points have client mode features (WAP11, DWL-900AP+, DWL-2100AP, WAP54G, etc). There are also the various "game adapters", but these require some care in selection. If they require the Ad-Hoc mode to do bridging, they may not have a client mode feature. I'm too lazy to do a survey of every possible client device, but if you have one in mind, I can RTFM and try to decide if it might work.

The client mode bridges I listed above all have external antenna connectors (R-SMA, or R-TNC). It's easy enough to attach pigtail between the connector and an external antenna.

I don't consider the lack of a connector to be an issue. Make or buy a pigtail from an N-connector and some thin coax (RG-188a/u or .141 semi-rigid). Remove whatever claims to be an antenna and solder the coax end of the pigtail to where the antenna was connected.

What do you have against soldering? If you can build your own antennas, you should have enough manual dexterity to do some soldering. Like everything else, it does take some practice.

Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

I talked to a salesman on the phone and they wanted $350.00. Another company wanted $279.00.

I went to EBay and found one just ending and got it for $129.00 plus shipping, or about $140.00.

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I'm very happy with the deal.

Thanks again everyone for all the good information,

Dennis

Reply to
Dennis Vogel

Interesting. The moonblink web site offers it for $169. ebay sales that conflict with the sellers own web site fascinate me. This looks like a continuing sale. There's another one open on ebay now.

As Jeff added up the prices, I would agree, for your RV application. Neat, tidy, professional appearance. I would still prefer the $10 solution, but then I'm not neat and tidy.

This panel would be better on the front of the RV, rather than on the roof. It isn't one of the flat/round TV antennas popular for RV use. It is a panel antenna that wants to be vertical. Having it mounted on the front of the RV would allow you to point toward the source, like parking at McDonald's, facing the restaurant.

It is noted as a "weatherproof" assembly. I wonder if it would be happy on the front of an RV driving into a rainstorm. It might need to be inside the front window.

The documentation refers to Orinoco a few times, and the client looks like the Orinoco Client Manager. Good card, inside a USB box.

Reply to
dold

Hi Clarence,

I'm going to mount it on the TV antenna boom. When I raise the antenna the panel will be vertical and I can rotate it.

Dennis

Reply to
Dennis Vogel

I was thinking about shopping for free wireless connections while you were driving down the road. Maybe it would work well enough while collapsed for that purpose. Netstumbler and a GPS can plot the locations of wireless hotspots onto a mapping program like Microsft Streets and Trips or Delorme Street Atlas.

If it's mounted on an antenna mast, watch out for it being too close to the roof of the RV. That's quite a large reflector. Jeff could probably speak to required clearances. I think he made a comment earlier about shooting across the tops of mobile homes.

Reply to
dold

I'll remember that and mount it as high as possible. I use to mount my bag-phone directional antenna on the TV mast.

My trusty 3 watt bag phone has almost never let me down in the last six years of traveling, but analog is going away and no one will program it anymore. But it was very slow anyway (but dependable).

I definitely will be looking for free hot spots. I found one site that lists many locations. Any other hints on how to find them?

Dennis

Reply to
Dennis Vogel

Because they are free, the lists aren't maintained in as fastidious a fashion as a commercial list, but there are a few. A Google search for 802.11 free hotspot returns 207,000.

Here are some I use.

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(change CAWISPS to something else for non-California search)
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Reply to
dold

I just got the Hawking USB and the performance is impressive. I have used it outdoors in the rain simply putting it in a ziplock freezer bag- no problems.

I tried this route because I like the idea of the antenna and the receiver being as close as possible and therefore having no loss of db on the cable or the cable connections.

The Hawking gave me very close to double the strength of 3 other wireless USB adapters tested.

Mike

Reply to
M. Im

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