More about 5E remote from Catalina Island to the SoCal mainland [telecom]

Would the LEC sink fiber across the 26 miles of sea for the remote/host link, or would they use digital microwave (the elevations are sufficient for one microwave link?

I understand that microwave is vunerable to "wiretapping" for those with the wherewithal.

***** Moderator's Note *****

Microwave is vulnerable to rain fading, antenna displacement due to excessive wind loading, foreign objects in the path, solar damage, bird strikes, and (for all I know) mogo on the gogo. I hope they used fiber.

Bill Horne Moderator

Reply to
Sam Spade
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The LEC will invariably install the cheaper of the two. I strongly suspect that the microwave link would be cheaper than getting the fiber buried under the channel. Assuming, of course, that satisfactory engineering requirements could be met to deal with Bill's list of impairments. Fiber can also be "wiretapped" (I've heard that LEC's have "special" rooms in certain wire centers for the feds listening connections...), and since the LEC doesn't guarantee privacy of your communications, they don't particularly care about eavesdropping on their radio circuits. Their wiretapping and eavesdropping concerns are with the state and federal laws and staying out of trouble with those governments. Any external eavesdropper would be subject to those laws, but the LEC wouldn't be charged for putting your communication up on a radio link that somebody could listen to.

Don't forget that the vast majority of long distance circuits were up on microwave from the early '50's until fiber went big time in the late 80's.

ET

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***** Moderator's Note ***** *ANY* radio circuit is subject to wiretapping, the "those with the wherewithal" include anyone who can afford an "unlocked" scanner that receives the cellular networks. This is why the U.S. Department of Defense has a long list of approved encryption devices which may be used with cellular phones to prevent interception of calls when classified matters are being discussed.

Of course, fiber can also be tapped, but it's a major effort and would have to be done on dry land unless someone with the resources of a government was involved. It's unlikely, not because I believe in "Security through obscurity", but because it costs a lot less to do by other means.

Bill Horne Moderator

Reply to
Eric Tappert

Bill,

All that is required to wiretap fiber is physical acces to the fiber. That may be a bit more difficult than tuning a radio receiver (remember that microwave has highly directional antennas..), but it is very possible with a lot less than government resources. It is not even necessary to break (a detectable event to the LEC) the fiber to do it... In any event, the LEC is much more concerned with the availability and reliability of the circuits rather than whether anybody is listening. Of course the real issue is whether anybody (other than govenment, of course) wants to wade through all the chaf to get any wheat (assuming that they would recognize the good stuff)...

ET

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Reply to
Eric Tappert

Unless one's tapping the entire AT&T backbone as the NSA is doing in San Francisco per:

AFAIK, the NSA, et al aren't cost-conscious and don't put out bids. :-)

IIRC, the situation detailed in the above article is still entangled in the legal system in DC; tidbits of info surrounding the case occasionally appear on SFGate (one of the San Francisco Chronicle's web sites).

Think "Echelon" in which all Internet, cell phone, radio and any other form of data communication is similarly being tapped 24/7/365 worldwide -- the USA has 6 Echelon facilities (USA, Canada, Australia, UK, and elsewhere).

See:

Russia has a system similar to Echelon named "Sorm-IV", and I'm sure other countries have their counterparts. If one's curious, look back in comp.dcom.telecom's archives late-2008 to mid-2009 for all the info URLs I posted concerning Echelon, Sorm, etc. during that period.

An interesting factoid: as of 2006, 99% of the world's long-distance voice and data traffic is carried over optical-fiber -- very easy to tap.

Reply to
Thad Floryan

I think someone less than the government, but with a good skill set, would go for the "person of interest" NID. Some good inductive coupling and a state-of-the-air transmitter would seem to fill that bill.

Reply to
Sam Spade

If you are worried about snooping then encrypt the link?

But subsea fibre cables break as well.

And, repairing them is usually a 1 to 3 week exercise involving a maintenance contract and a cable ship.......

Lots of islands seem to have microwave originally acting as backup to subsea fibre - or multiple fibres on different routes.

It tends to cost real money though....

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Reply to
Stephen

The problem is not making a connection to listen in, the problem is that the volume of conversations (or e-mail, or usnet posts, etc) is so great on fiber (or microwave, for that matter) that considerable computational resources are needed to separate the wheat from the chaf. In the "good old" days, the tap would be made on the loop, so there was no need to try to extract the "right" circuit. Today with cell phones and call forwarding and all that technology, picking out the "right" circuit is problematic. Of course there is a law that allows law enforcement to access a single individual, but if one is looking for an "unknown" individual, the problem is much more complex.

In short, if you know what line to tap, it's easy. If, however, you are looking for "suspicious" activity, the problem is much more complex, probably beyond the ability of less than a government.

Just my two cents...

ET

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Reply to
Eric Tappert

Catalina Island's population is less than 4,000. Doesn't Jersey have a lot more people than that?

***** Moderator's Note *****

Given that the channel islands are in between the UK and the mainland, I assume that they are a convenient junction point for the cables, and that the HUGO network dropped off a few paths at Jersey so that the island's residents could find out how nice their home is.

But seriously, folks ... I wonder if people who live on islands consume a disproportionate share of electronic entertainment.

Bill Horne Moderator

Reply to
Sam Spade

Jersey's population is about 90,000. I dunno about the residents' taste in online entertainment, but I do know that it is a major global financial center, due to the unusual history of the Channel Islands. They are integrated with the UK financial system, but not part of the UK and not subject to UK or EU taxes. If you are doing business in the UK, but you're not subject to UK taxes because you're not a UK resident, Jersey's where you probably do your banking.

This means they have a lot more need for high-tech communication than your typical offshore island. No wonder they have all the fiber.

R's, John

***** Moderator's Note *****

If I'm not a UK resident, and therefore not subject to UK taxes, why wouldn't I just do my banking in London?

Reply to
John Levine

Because the banks would collect taxes and you'd have to try to get them refunded. I do have an account in the UK, and I have here a tax certificate saying that last year they withheld £102.38 from the interest they paid me. In the US I can credit that small amount against my US taxes but for larger amounts and other countries, it's a lot more complicated.

R's, John

Reply to
John Levine

Large volumes of digital traffic being monitored by computers, eh? If so, one could post numerous 'false messages', spattered with words which might attract attention, such as bombing, explosion, Taliban, Islam, religious-zealots, right-wing extremists, liberal, communist, socialist, anti-governemnt etc. etc. That should keep CIA busy! Then the 'real' message would be coded and seemingly innocent.

Reply to
stan

I believe so, but even small populations can use surprisingly large quantities of bandwidth if it is available at a reasonable cost. People who work at home and are running a small stock-brokerage or travel agency from the island, etc. Due diligence nowadays involves a lot of web-surfing and PDF downloading.

And that 4,000 is residents, doesn't count the tourist trade.

Note that one of those Cable & Wireless links mentioned above (HUGO East) is using optical fibers wrapped inside a high voltage undersea power transmission cable. Catalina Island could use one or two of those combination cables to the mainland, as a backup if nothing else.

As far as I can track down, the island is running on a 9 Megawatt diesel-engine based powerplant on the outskirts of Avalon. Even allowing multiple paralleled units, there are inevitably going to be the occasional..."power excursions." Generators do stall, and physically break down, circuit breakers trip out, operators hit the wrong switch, or they close the wrong fuel supply valve, and...

(In layman's terms: "Honey? Where are the candles?" is probably uttered more often than they would like. )

Considering that there isn't a lot of First Run Movie access - One screen, movie and live. Room seats 1,184 people, they show one movie at a time, one run nightly at 7:00 with a 9:30 show on Friday and Saturday... (Oh, and one of the last four working Page theater organs in the US, 16 ranks.)

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And similar live entertainment venues are also geographically challenged by either being all-locals or having to bring all the band's gear across on the ferry...

I'm betting that there are a lot of Netflix envelopes going back and forth on the mail boat. And a lot of cable and satellite customers.

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Reply to
Bruce L.Bergman

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