Zone Response Times (50ms or 750ms) for GEM-P816

Hello all - I've been troubleshooting a problem for a while now and I
think I've narrowed it down.
I have a GEM-P816 using 12 zones. I have wired and wireless
transmitters but only having trouble with the wireless. I have
glassbreak shock sensors (Sentrol 5150s) connected to GEM-TRANS2 units
which then communicate with a GEM-RECV32 which in turn connects to the
control ports on the GEM-P816 panel.
Every few months, a zone trips that has a glassbreak shock sensor on
it (nothing is happening to the sensor when the zone fault is
triggered). After a zone trips, my alarm re-arms after a timeout
period of 5 minutes. On more than one occasion, the alarm trips,
sounds for 5 minutes, resets itself, trips again and follows the same
pattern three full times. From the log, it's always one minute after
the alarm resets that it trips again. This happens when I am not home
because if I am home, I simply disarm the alarm so I don't know if it
would have gone off again.
This has happened at least 15 times already (over the past 6 years)
and all equipment always tests to be within specifications - no loose
cables or connectors, no weak batteries and it's not always the same
sensors.
Here's some facts I recently realized:
1) The alarm is configured so it makes an audible beep when a zone is
opened. The zones causing the problems never trigger the audible beep
sound (when the alarm is not armed) but do trigger the alarm to sound
(when the alarm is armed). If it was a connection-related problem
triggering the alarm, It would be very coincidental if these zones
only had problems when the alarm was armed and never had a problem to
play the audible beep sound when the alarm is not armed.
2) The zones that have the problem are always zones 9 through 12.
Zones 1 through 8, some of which also have the same wireless equipment
as above, have never had a problem in the past 6 years.
Point 2 above prompted me to look into the specifications on the
equipment a little deeper, and I found the following message on the
glassbreak shock Sentrol 5150 sensors:
"Do not wire the sensor into fast response loops-false alarms will
result"
I fired up QuickLoader and discovered that the first 8 zones (1
through 8) are correctly configured - they are configured as normal
response loops (750ms). When checking zones 9 through 12, I see that I
cannot change the setting, nor do I know what value is set for the
loop response time. If the loop response times are set too low for
zones 9 through 12, this could be the problem causing the false alarms
but I don't know how to tell what response time those zones are set
for and how I can possibly change the loop response time setting if
it's incorrect.
Anyone know how I can check the loop response time for zones 9-12 on
my Napco GEM-P816 panel? Maybe it's a limitation in the panel. I
eventually will be replacing it with a GEM-P9600 panel for the Home
Automation controls but I was holding off until I could afford it. If
this is a limitation within the GEM-P816 panel though, I may be forced
to upgrade in order to fix this problem.
BTW, I tried calling Napco but they won't talk to me because I'm not a
dealer. They won't even answer my question. Horrible!
Thanks so much for your help in advance!!
Reply to
HandymanYP
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Zones 9-16 are set for slow response and cannot be changed. The panel most likely alarms only three times because the zone is programmed ot to trigger more than 3x in one armed period. This is an option to prevent swinger alarms where a screwed up sensor causes unlimited triggers. Id replace the sensor. Those 5150s are inexpensive.
Regards, Robert
Reply to
RLB
Zones 9-16 are set for slow response and cannot be changed. The panel most likely alarms only three times because the zone is programmed ot to trigger more than 3x in one armed period. This is an option to prevent swinger alarms where a screwed up sensor causes unlimited triggers. Id replace the sensor. Those 5150s are inexpensive.
Regards, Robert
Reply to
RLB
Thanks Robert. It's not only a single sensor - it has happened with each sensor at least once on zones 9 through 12.but never with the sensors on any other zones (same sensors with same wireless configuration but on zones 1-8). Also, problematic sensors have been replaced more than once even though they successfully test to be within manufacturer specifications (13 ohms nominal resistance, 24 ohms maximum resistance, 1 megaohm minimum resistance to trigger an alarm).
Any other ideas on what could be causing this problem? It's making my alarm frustrating and almost worthless. Are the end-of-line resistors different for zones 9-12 on the P816 panel or anything else that makes these zones different and consequently prone to false alarms?
Reply to
HandymanYP
I don't use Napco wireless. But here is my 2 cents...
1. Check for voltage leaks across each 5150, then check the voltage across the transmitter terminals. All it takes is a polarity issue in some cases.
2. If the 5150's have a lithium battery inside them, they might be going bad. You might want to use the Amseco GC20's instead.
3. If you have motions in your house, set the zones with the 5150 for cross zoning with the motions. This should totally eliminate the false alarms if done correctly.
Jim Rojas
Reply to
Jim Rojas
Thanks so much for your help Jim.
1) I'll try this. What do you mean by a "polarity issue"? From what I understand about the 5150, they are not polarized so adhering to a polarity standard is not required or possible.
2) The 5150s use piezoelectricity so they do not have a battery inside them. Not sure I want to start swapping out all my 5150s with another manufacturer since I'm not convinced that's where the problem is (since they adhere to all manufacturer specifications when tested).
3) I do not have motions in my house.
I'm still convinced this has something to do with the fact that the zones that keep tripping are always on zones 9 through 12 and NEVER on zone 1 through 8. I may start swapping zones from one bank to the other in order to continue to troubleshoot the cause but then again I may just try to replace the whole panel.
I'm sure someone out there has some more thoughts - please let me know!
Thanks.
Reply to
HandymanYP
I install Napco almost exclusively but mostly only from the 1632 on up so. I've installed a couple of 816's but don't remember too much about them ...... however ..... I've got a couple of ideas, but before I take the time to explain them all, please tell me where are you obtaining zones 9 through 12? Zone doubling, EZM module, keypad? Also, where are the shock sensors mounted? Are they in a different area or objects than the ones that don't give you any problems?
Reply to
Jim
Thanks Jim for your offer to help!!
Zones 9-12 are coming through a wireless GEM-RECV32 module which connects into the "remote bus"/keypad terminals on the P816. The two keypads I have hook up to the same terminals. I can provide more details on this connection if it helps.
The shock sensors are all mounted on the bottom-right corner of the window, one inch from each edge. As for environmentals, the zones giving problems are scatters throughout the house - east side first floor, south side second floor and west side first floor.
Thanks for any suggestions you can provide!
Reply to
HandymanYP
Ok that helps eliminate some things.
I'll presume that since your keypads are working that the wireless receiver is hooked up properly also.
Which keypads are you using? And .... are you using any zones beyond zone 12? .... And .... if you are .... what do you have on those zones?
Reply to
Jim
Thanks again Jim.
I am using two GEM-RP3DGTL Keypads. Zone 12 is my last zone - nothing after that. Here's my zone breakdown:
Zone 1: (2) Door entry with (2) glassbreak shock sensors (wired) Zone 2: (1) Door entry (wired) Zone 3: (12) glassbreak shock sensors and (4) contact sensors (wired) Zone 4: (2) glassbreak shock sensors and (2) contact sensors (wireless) Zone 5: (2) glassbreak shock sensors and (2) contact sensors (wireless) Zone 6: Remote (Keyfob) Zone 7: (2) glassbreak shock sensors and (2) contact sensors (wireless) Zone 8: (2) Smoke Zone 9: (3) glassbreak shock sensors and (2) contact sensors (wireless) Zone 10: (2) glassbreak shock sensors and (2) contact sensors (wireless) Zone 11: (1) glassbreak shock sensor and (1) contact sensor (wireless) Zone 12: (2) glassbreak shock sensors and (1) contact sensor (wireless)
Zones 9, 10 and 12 have given me problems in the past. I can't recall if Zone 11 ever gave me trouble, but none of the other zones 1-8 have ever caused a problem.
Thanks!!
Reply to
HandymanYP
Thanks again Jim.
I am using two GEM-RP3DGTL Keypads. Zone 12 is my last zone - nothing after that. Here's my zone breakdown:
Zone 1: (2) Door entry with (2) glassbreak shock sensors (wired) Zone 2: (1) Door entry (wired) Zone 3: (12) glassbreak shock sensors and (4) contact sensors (wired) Zone 4: (2) glassbreak shock sensors and (2) contact sensors (wireless) Zone 5: (2) glassbreak shock sensors and (2) contact sensors (wireless) Zone 6: Remote (Keyfob) Zone 7: (2) glassbreak shock sensors and (2) contact sensors (wireless) Zone 8: (2) Smoke Zone 9: (3) glassbreak shock sensors and (2) contact sensors (wireless) Zone 10: (2) glassbreak shock sensors and (2) contact sensors (wireless) Zone 11: (1) glassbreak shock sensor and (1) contact sensor (wireless) Zone 12: (2) glassbreak shock sensors and (1) contact sensor (wireless)
Zones 9, 10 and 12 have given me problems in the past. I can't recall if Zone 11 ever gave me trouble, but none of the other zones 1-8 have ever caused a problem.
Thanks!!
Reply to
HandymanYP
Hmmm I thought you might be using the RP1CAe2 keypad that has a built in EZM for four additional zones and that you possibly activated them in the keypad, when you didn't need to.
Only thing I can think of now, is that in the system configuration programing that you told the system to look for zones 9 through 12 in the section that asks if you want to ad an EZM .... which you don't have to do if you have wireless. I don't know what would happen if you did that. Also recheck the position of the jumpers in the transmitters. If you have only external contacts J1 should be in the number one position. If you are using internal and external contacts, the J1 jumper should be removed. You can use up batteries real quick if you don't have the jumpers set right and weak batteries can cause things to happen. Also, if you're using other than the batteries that came with the xmitters, be careful .... there are some crappy lithium batteries out there usually sold lots less expensive but they can cause strange problems. By the way, in programing the transmitter ID's make sure the last number is a number one if you're only using one zone of the transmitter. And when you program a number one you don't have to put a jumper across zone two terminals 2 and 3. This uses more battery power.
You might try exchanging one or two of these "bad" transmitters with others in the system and see if the problem follows the transmitters. If it doesn't then ( as much of a problem as it may be), move a "bad" shock sensor to another working window. See if the problem moves or stays. And don't forget, you have contacts in those zones too. Maybe try shorting out the contacts for a while and see if you get false alarms. If you've got a good meter, look at the resistance across each component in the loop.
Other than that, (by the way, I presume that you're using the Quickloader software and didn't use the "easy menu driven programing) I'd suggest that you check the program for anything having to do with zones 9 through 12 and make any necessary adjustments and then default the panel back to factory and reload the program. The zone response can be set in the zone features section but I don't think that would have any effect if the zones were wireless. Did you increase or decrease the supervisory timers? Don't. Have you used the Quickloader status upload to determine the signal strength of all your transmitters? I never accept anything below a 6 and according to Napco a 3 is the lowest signal you are supposed to accept. Don't believe it. Check the end of line resistor options. I always choose no EOL and put jumpers on the panel zones and on the rest of the zones that are wireless I don't choose no EOL.
With regard to programing, I've found that sometimes if you program something and then erase it then reprogram it .... sometimes it really doesn't erase or if it shows something is programed .... it's really not. Back in the beginning when I started programing with a lap top, I was doing a lot of changes during learning trial and error and discovered this. If you make a lot of changes sometimes they don't all take.
Or just default the panel and start from scratch with the programing. With that few zones it doesn't take long.
If if were me and I'd tried all the above and I'd examined all the physical aspects of the installation and found everything ok, I'd go to the van and get another panel and install it. You don't have that luxury. Which is one of the pit falls of doing it your self.
Oh and by the way, don't hold it against Napco for not talking with you. They're only set up to talk with dealers because they just haven't set up the time and methods for dealing with end users who need to be explained every little detail about a panel. They have to start with people who have some experience and/or have at least taken some classes on programing. And there's a lot of dealers out there who would really give them a hard time for providing information to what they deem as their potential customers. And obviously Napco would rather give the time to the dealers who give them the bulk of their business. You'll find (I think) all alarm equipment mfg's do the same as Napco. Unfortunately (and your comments reflect this) .....now days ...people who buy electronic equipment retail are used to calling the mfg and getting help. You have to remember that the alarm trade is basically not a retail market. Yes, you were able to buy the equipment but don't expect Napco to support you. .As far as they are concerned, either you get help from the place you bought it or....you're on your own. If you bought a Ford transmission you wouldn't be able to get Ford to help you install or trouble shoot it.
Good luck.
Reply to
Jim
By the way, just in case you have more questions I'll be pretty busy the next week or so .... so I might not be able to check in here. Just all of a sudden got a number of new installations ( one after a fire and one after a burglary so they require immediate attention) plus some others and still haven't finished the ones I'm working on.
GAWHD!!!!! ..... will this endless constant flow of business never end? (Sigh!!!!!)
Recession? Recession? I doan see no steenking recession!!!!!!
Reply to
Jim
Thanks Jim. I have to go through the suggestions you made one-by-one and start checking things off. I'll keep you updated. Thanks so much for all of your help thus far!
Reply to
HandymanYP

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