translator question

It's an art, just like woodworking or paper hanging. A professional wallpaper hanger will go through 100 or more razor blades per room, an amateur maybe three or four. A pro understands that $5 worth of blades may save $50 worth of time patching a bad cut from a dull blade. I do a fairly good job on plumbing and electrical work because they fit my big hands and I do a great job at cabinetmaking and woodworking because big hands are often a plus when working with hand planes and such and I've been doing it since I was 12.

When you get to SMT you're getting into watchmaking and diamond cutting skills. Risks are much higher, at least to the subject material. It's so easy to overheat and kill small components. With wood, the worst thing is to cut something too short so you "measure twice" and cut once and use a template or a jig whenever possible. With SMT no amount of measuring's going to save that teensy-tiny chip from too much heat. I'm envious of the guys who can do it because I know I am not one of them!

JEDEC: Joint Electronic Device Engineering Council SOIC: Small Outline Integrated Circuit

I've been doing almost as much reading trying to get my arms around the details of custom HA as I did for my Master's. I wake up in the middle of the night with some idea about how I am going to connect X to Y and have Z do something based on some state change. Like right now!

I guess if I really wanted to improve my skills I'd try *desoldering* some of the SMT's on all the boards in the junkbin. How do you guys vent your solder fumes? My most recent batch of solder came with a California Cancer warning that implied that if solder fumes didn't lead to sudden death, they would surely lead to an early grave.

Still, I *really* want one of Dave's BX-AHT's and someone's already bought Don's so I might just buy an unpopulated board or two from Jeff and have a go at it. I haven't added to Dr. Greenenstein's horror drawer of deformed devices destroyed by defective soldering. I assume Dave's board is somewhat more robust than the 4 layer laptop motherboards I've ruined!

:-)

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green
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Happy Year of bingxu 4073!

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

Kung Hee Fat Choy to you too.

From:Robert Green ROBERT snipped-for-privacy@YAH00.COM

Reply to
BruceR

There is one issue that I'm still unsure about. I asked Bruce to see if JDS could enlighten me about how they handle the TW523 but they only referred me to an explanation of the X-10 powerline protocol. I'm fairly familiar with how the Ocelot does things so I'll use it to illustrate. I think that whatever I do for the Ocelot should also work for other controllers using the TW523. Also, the problems will only occur in systems with a mix of X-10 and other PLC technologies where a TW523 will be used to relay some commands to the powerline. With no TW523 sending PLC the issue goes away.

When the Ocelot sends a code, roZetta (there's been a spelling change - I'm too old and frail to take on Steve Jobs) will have to wait for one complete copy in order to decide what action to take. Since the Ocelot has collision detection, it listens during the second copy of the code to see if there are any ONEs where there should be ZEROs. This is due to the fact that the TW523 actually reports the powerline activity on a delayed basis, reporting the first copy of the code (as seen from the powerline) during the Ocelot's transmission of the second copy.

Since roZetta will also be operating on a one code delay basis, the TW523 will not report anything during the time the Ocelot is sending the second copy and listening to detect collisions. roZetta will have to feed the Ocelot an image of the first copy (or merely echo the second as the Ocelot sends it). Whether the defined action is to send to the TW523, send to another interface or to do nothing, roZetta will always need to feed the Ocelot a clean copy of the code. If not, the Ocelot will think there was a collision and automatically retransmit.

However, in the event of a collision, the Ocelot, having been told that all is hunky-dory might be sending another code, especially if the collision occurs during the address code preceding a function code. It could get ugly if the Ocelot is sending a series of addresses ahead of a function or is sending a macro although this could be alleviated by moving the macro from the Ocelot to roZetta so the Ocelot only sends the first code as a trigger and roZetta handles sending the macro to the TW523.

I'm not sure there's a solution other than merely eliminating X-10 error detection by always telling the Ocelot (or other controller) that "all is well" but am open to suggestions. I'm most concerned about instances where the X-10 code is from a security panel. Perhaps, roZetta could be instructed to give priority to a limited set of X-10 codes and to always try retransmitting them a certain number of times. Of course, it would be better to just have roZetta respond to those codes by sending with a more reliable PLC technology.

Reply to
Dave Houston

To clarify, the BX24-AHT boards that Jeff has use all through hole components - it's the roZetta board currently under development that will make wider use of SMT. The only exceptions are the 3 SMT caps and 1 SMT resistor needed for the MPX4115 mod to the BX24-AHT boards.

The easiest way to build DIY boards with SMT components is with solder paste, a hypodermic dispenser and a toaster oven. There are a couple of excellent tutorials on the web and there are 2-3 companies even selling sophisticated programmable temperature controllers for toaster ovens (although, to me, it seems incongruous to spend $200 to control a $40 oven).

The oven is overkill for the MPX4115 mod. A dental pick to hold them >I've ordered 2 boards, got ZBasic & the IDE working under Wine (

Reply to
Dave Houston

You've just spelled out the recipe for divorce, at least in my house. Science projects may not involve the kitchen and I'll admit, there's good reason for that after I burned a hole in the Formica with a pocket torch.

I've come to realize why I like assembling PC's from parts. The new AMD CPUs have 754 pins but they all slip like a greased pig into the ZIF socket. Of course the rest of the motherboard is just crawling with lady bug sized SMT's with more leads than a centipede has feet. Fortunately, they rarely require anything more complicated than replace fairly large "through the hole" power capacitors.

Could I use the BX24-AHT (Bixtoforat?) and modify it to implement the escape key method of all house control? Or would it be easier to modify the TM-751 the way Dan L. did? I was just looking at his code for the modified transceiver and came across this block, which might offer some clue how to handle your problem with collision detection:

"; Wait until there have been at least 4 half cycles with no received ; carrier and there have been at least 6 half cycles since the end of ; any received message (including our own). This does not necessarily ; require any delay since the routine examines the history in the ; receive buffer. A gap of 4 half cycles guarantees that we will not ; step on the middle of some other transmitter's message. A gap of 3 ; would be sufficient, but 4 is more symmetrical. The 6 half cycle gap ; guarantees that we do not "tailgate," risking having our message taken ; as a repeat of some other sender's. Another interesting possibility ; would be to wait for 7 half cycles on the first of each set of 6-spaced ; transmisions. If all transmitters did this there would be no risk of ; synchronized collisions on any message after the first." (c) Copyright Daniel D. Lanciani 2002

From: ftp://ftp.danlan.com/ftp.danlan.com/homeauto/x1002.txt

This stuff really makes my head hurt. I'm going to go watch "This Old House" to clear my poor addled brain. I thought C-MAX was hard to follow. I just can't make any sense of ASM files. I feel dumb.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

I use a separate oven dedicated to soldering and no longer have a wife (gave up after 12, figured 13 would be unlucky).

As I think I noted earlier, modifying the BX24-AHT firmware will come after I finish roZetta and after I port the code to the ZX-24. To be clear about my priorities...

  1. roZetta (which will use a ZX-24)
  2. port BX-24 code to ZX-24 - can be used with existing BX24-AHT boards
  3. update BX-24 code for existing BX24-AHT users

I will include your escape mechanism in roZetta (#1) and will try to remember it for #2.

#3 requires adding an external EEPROM to the BX-24 "chip" and a major rewrite of the code. I may not last that long. The existing firmware works well (Manual documents features) but uses all but about 10 bytes of the EEPROM. I have no plans to do anything with it until finishing 1 & 2.

I think roZetta will probably suit your needs better than the *X24-AHT although it will require that you use a modified MR26A for RF input.

The main failing of the BX-24 (other than insufficient EEPROM) is that it only has only one software UART. While it can be reassigned to different pins, it can only use one pair of input/output buffers. This means that only one of the three secondary serial ports can be full-duplex (almost full as it goes deaf when the UART is switched to the other pins). Since the CM11A keeps repeating its "data available" poll until there's a response, nothing is lost during the brief excursions of the UART to other pins but it limits the usefulness of the other ports to tasks where the attached devices can be polled. The ZX-24 makes about 10K of EEPROM available and has 4 full-duplex interrupt driven software UARTs. (And the developer of the ZX-24 is far more open to suggested improvements than was Jack Schoof who developed the BX-24.) I still have some work to do to adapt the code to the ZX-24 chip. When I get it adapted I plan to publish it as an Application Note on the ZBasic site. Anyone who wants can take a stab at modifying it for their own purposes whether benign or nefarious.

The problem roZetta has regarding collisions is totally different from any associated with the RR501. The RR501 sees the powerline in realtime while anything listening to a TW523 only sees it on a delayed (and part-time) basis.

I had just recently shut down my web page so I wouldn't have to update and maintain it. I'm afraid roZetta will require a web page to explain its care and feeding so I'll try to get that setup while I'm waiting for the 2414S and UPB gear that Bruce is loaning me.

I've also designed a board that uses the ZX-40 (and optionally can use the xPort) that more or less duplicates the basic concept of the *X24-AHT but with more EEPROM and more I/O pins (8 ADC, 6 DIO). It was while designing it that I realized it would (with some changes) make an excellent universal translator which led to roZetta. roZetta uses the ZX-24 because it was easier to make a plug-n-play version using it and because roZetta doesn't directly interface with an RF receiver.

"Robert Green" wrote:

Reply to
Dave Houston

I just knew my time would come.

Reply to
Dave Houston

You give me more reading work than my Econ professor did!!!! So far, it seems the most important topic in the soldering world is the advent of lead-free solder and all of the problems that SAC solder causes when used outside of a inert nitrogen environment. Am I going to have to get a pressure tank for my toaster oven?

Now to figure out what drossing, whiskering and filleting mean re: solder and what all the various acronyms like HASL, OSP, Ni/Pd and look to look for some basic soldering tutorials.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

"Science Projects" (as she calls anything with alligator clips, trailing wires, odd smelling chemicals, etc) have to stay out of the kitchen and laundry area. That seems fair enough given that she's the one spending the most time in those areas. Oddly enough, I think the oven thermostat is fried in our toaster oven so it might have to be retired. :-) Not sure that I want to get into board-heating soldering techniques, though. I still have lots more reading to do in that area.

Great. I'm grateful you considered doing anything at all with it. Thanks again, Dave! Meanwhile, I am going to see if anyone at ADI thinks that something that speaks RF to the Ocelot is a good idea. People seem to keep asking for it.

Well then, live long and prosper!

That's a piece of X-10 gear I *don't* have. :-( Any product that

*required* software produced by X-10 didn't interest me. The picture looks a little like the USB unit that ATI packages with their All-in-Wonder cards with RF remotes.

full-duplex

More I/O and memory is always better!

It's good that you're collaborating.

Oh well, it sounded similar to my tin ear. Does the TW523 use some sort of comparator to check the what it hears on the powerline to a command stored in its buffer?

You're an old war dog, Dave, and all the commotion with all these new protocols was too much for you to ignore. I think it's great! Once more into the breach, dear friends, once more!

I hadn't realized that.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green
[snip]

The ATI gear is made by X-10. If you have one, look at the FCC ID. It will start with the same B4S as all of X-10's.

[more snipping]

No, it merely reports what happened on the powerline 22 half-cycles earlier.

Reply to
Dave Houston

Well, sir, it's a USB remote and it's got not a stinkin' FCC number to be found on it! That's odd. Canadian # is 1632104558A. Just says it's been tested to comply with FCC regs.

I have a JS21A (could be a JR - my memory hiccuped - coffee's working too slowly) Mouse Remote transciever but alas, no MS26A. :-(

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

Look on the remote for the FCC ID number (e.g. B4SUR84A).

Reply to
Dave Houston

Since it's USB, is that going to help me or will I need a USB-serial converter, too? Anyway, it's moot, since I just bought and MS26A via Ebay for $10. I figure it's just part of the course materials for Professor Dave's home automation design course and it would be cheap at three times the price.

FTR, it's as you said, B4SUR84A

[Late breaking news: Someone contacted me off-line to offer me their used BX24-AHT for sale at a price I can afford but they swore me to secrecy lest you set their hair on fire for parting with it too cheaply, you old curmudgeon, you.]

:-)

I think the image of my poor wife fretting every time the solder fumes set off the smoke detector and my drawer full of "lost souls" crippled by my ham-handed attempts at small-component soldering made them take pity on me. She wants me to throw the solder monsters away but I feel strangely attached by guilt. I was the one who crippled them. :-( Anyway I think that the gentlemen's switch to Insteon had somewhat more to do with it . . . Anyway, I can't wait! If I have a well-soldered one in front of me it makes it a lot easier to solder my own unit because I have some idea what a good joint should look like. What I'll do with two Biatzes I don't know (I can't seem to type BX24-AHT very easily - how about a slick nick like Rozetta for your older "child?"

Can they be put on opposite phases and not collide like the TM-751's sort of do? I'm trying to put together a rapid deployment X-10 kit so that if I have to set up shop somewhere else temporarily, I can do so with ease. X-10 ain't dead yet. Sort of feels like that B movie with Sharon Stone as a gunslinger. There's going to a serious shakeout in the industry and at least one protocol will go the way of the dodo. I'm betting it will be more than one.

Smarthome is a comer. They push out a lot of fancy sales rags and evidently do a thriving business even though they have high prices. Some of the other contenders have nowhere near that organizational "muscle" and they lack easy to use websites. They've also very smartly decided, like you did, that parallel operation of X-10 and Insteon would be essential to Insteon's acceptance. Business survival is very much like jungle survival - you have to have an edge on the competition, no matter how slight. Time will take care of the rest.

I'd go to work for Smarthome if they opened up on the East Cost just to get an employee discount. :-) I'm not sure which protocol will get the inevitable kiss of death, but I'm betting it's not Insteon.

Oh boy new toys! Long live X-10!

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green
[heavily redacted]

It doesn't handle X-10 type codes, uses a different RF frequency and would require custom software on the PC to use it for anything other than what the ATI software does. I was merely pointing out that it is made by X-10.

I don't care whether they resell them or not. In the case of the one recently offered for sale I merely noted that the seller got it for free and complained incessantly that he couldn't make it work. In other words, caveat emptor. Jeff tells me the surplus bare boards are going fast.

If you use them with CM11As they won't collide. If you use them with Ocelot/TW523, they will. The simplest arrangement is BX24-AHT+CM11A on one phase and any standard transceiver on the other. The CM11A will back off when it senses a collision and let the other transceiver send its PLC code.

Reply to
Dave Houston

A TW523 converter would probably have more use than the CM11a hydra-headed translator that I suggested 4-5 years ago because most PC-centric HA software now has support for multiple protocols . For example, Homeseer supports X-10 INSTEON, UPB, Z-wave, and soon Centralite and others.

Ditto for Elk MG1 which doesn't require a pc 24x7.

Main use would seem to be for retro-fitting Adicon Ocelot and Elk MM443 Magic Modules.

This effort would be useful to more than just those needing to upgrade older equipment if you posted the ZX/BX source code. In generally it is readily translated to BASCOM and so ported to more powerful ATMEL devices with more than one hardware UART which would make the device more useful.

Marc Marc_F_Hult

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Reply to
Marc F Hult

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