INSTEON: Let the recalls begin ...

The have to closeout their defective switch inventory to make room for the "fixed" ones coming soon.

(sarcasm, but I think it's lame they continue to sell their flickering switches)

Bobby,

I shouldn't have > Well, as I mentioned in the post you're quoting, I can buy 4 load

You were very clear about that. My comment was due to you talking about the non-cash cost. Yes, X10 hardware can be acquired for less money. That's the reason I have it. I just don't think using X10 as a comparison on the reliability and time expense really does anything to boost X10's merits. I have not yet played with Insteon myself. (Yet another reason I should have stayed quiet. I have no first hand experience.) What amuses me (and yeah it was really amusement, nothing more) is that you seem to find postings of problems/questions/issues with Insteon as a reason to champion X10. I'm not talking about your comments just in this thread. It seems that every chance you get you jump in with, "then it's not better than X10". I wish you could see my face now. An emoticon isn't sufficient. I'm smiling as I write this. I'm not bashing you, picking on you, or anything else negative. Think of my last post as merely an observation. :-)

ok, maybe I should have said, "an equivalent number of problems."

If I get a chance, I'll look up the discussion we had a while back. That is what I remember. Maybe my memory is wrong.

No. I was thinking of your comments here as it related to other threads, including a month old one that the two of us discussed a lot and where you were one of the people trying to help me through a problem. (That assistance is greatly appreciated. If I didn't say it before, thank you.)

In my year and a half of using X10, I've already had some things fail. X10 stuff has been unreliable. there have been reports of the unreliability of Insteon, notably with the flicker. And this recall certainly creates questions. But I do believe they are acting responsibly. I haven't heard of a lot of (any?) total failures of Insteon devices yet. So, yeah, having a few backups of things around isn't bad. I wonder though if you need to have the cases of backups that everyone I know with X10 stuff keeps. If replacements arent' needed as often, the higher monetary price is worth it. I believe this is still a definite unknown. So I hesitate to stand in the way of progress in order to continue using a system that's known to be flawed.

I picked up a bunch of used stuff recently for backup purposes. None of the used stuff has failed on me, but several of the ones purchased as new did. (Smarthome replaced them without question.)

Anyway, I didn't htink you were picking on Smarthome more than any other vendor, and I wasn't trying to pick on your or start anything. I really don't know why I opened my mouth. sorry about that.`

Don't be so hard on yourself. You had every reason to respond and hopefully our exchange will serve to clarify points that might be unclear on either side of the argument. You'd probably be surprised to learn I just ordered two Icon switches as a result of this discussion. It turns out the having LED's on the switches will be useful in the locations where we can't easily see the controlled load. The LED will confirm that the outside lights are really off during the day. At $20 apiece, it's a risk I can live with. And as long as the LEDs aren't in the bedroom, they don't have low SAF.

Merits? What merits? (-: It's dirt cheap. That's its only merit.

Obviously I don't believe in the "if you don't own it, don't talk about it" rule. I like to thoroughly investigate things before I buy or recommend them. I'd hardly get anywhere in the evaluation process if I didn't discuss what I didn't own. I try to limit my comments to analysis of the experience of others that I know to be reliable observers.

That's a truthful observation. I like to make sure the "next big thing" is what it's cracked up to be and Insteon had clearly been marketed as a serious improvement to the X-10 protocol. I want to know what makes people switch and whether Insteon's going to make my life easier or harder. I want to be sure it's really better before I buy into it.

I'm not worried. One thing I've learned from one of the more quiet experts here is that when you think someone's offensive or is dogging you, stop replying. We're still talking so that's a very positive sign. I assume that you're doing the very American thing "defending the underdog." There's no crime in that. The only difference is that we both are championing different underdogs!

I'll agree with that and add that most of X-10 issues are well-known and easy to work around. Insteon's (and other Smarthome issues) problems are somewhat murkier and harder to resolve.

No need. I'll concede the point. I'm not sure I said it in reference to Insteon, where, as I said above, the solutions to some problems seem to be still unknown no matter how much research one does.

OK - I didn't realize anyone remembered what I wrote a month ago! I don't. :-) And you're welcome, although I am pretty sure you thanked everyone previously.

I might have to take exception with that. I think "responsible" in this case is not selling any more switches until they are all fixed. They chose to do otherwise, and that, IMHO, means they evaluated the potential risk as decided they had more to lose by halting sales than they would having to recall switches. Time will tell whether it was the right choice.

I wouldn't own half the X-10 spares I own if they weren't so darn cheap by the case I knew I would kick myself if I passed them by. That is what tended to make me buy them in mass quantities.

That's a difficult decision. I realized after writing about spares that I hadn't accounted for another subtle effect of having them. They act as a ballast that keeps me from easily moving to the "next big thing" because they increase my investment in the old technology.

Were they X10 made devices or Smarthome X-10 devices that failed?

Don't worry so much. I enjoyed the discussion. It was all "above the belt" and no one bit anyone else's ear off, virtual or otherwise. Who could ask for more?

-- Bobby G.

I am surprised that you never figured out what was blackholing your X-10 signal. If anyone's got the tools and know-how, it's you. I'll also admit that in a larger house, I might be singing a different tune about X-10. But I'm happy being coupled through the utility pole. With the XTB, I reach ever corner. If that weren't true, I'd be more inclined to experiment with Insteon. The only issue left is the many Maxi and minicontrollers I have. Equipping them all with XTB's is not practical. I might be able to solve it by running a 110VAC signaling circuit through the house that allows multiple controllers to share a smaller number of XTB's. It's not very elegant, though.

I recall that you had mysterious delink and relink problems in the worst SAF place in the house - the kitchen. Until you run that to ground, I would have to put a question mark next to "signal reliability" since it would be a real issue in my house to screw up the kitchen lights. Maybe that should come under some other heading, but it really makes me nervous when devices reprogram themselves.

It makes me even more nervous when it's Switchlincs that are doing it because they already have a reputation for losing their address settings. This is another issue where I feel complexity is the enemy of reliability. I've never had a codewheel reset itself to a different house or unit code.

You retired guys. There's no weekend in the forseeable future where I would trade jackassing wall switches in and out for anything other than root canal work or an IRS audit. Isn't it reasonable to assume that at least some others have a greater "switch jackassing" cost than you? Some might have hired electricians, some might have traded favors with friends or BIL's for help and some might break off wires close to the wall and really get fu(ked.

All depends on state laws and case circumstances. I'll admit it would be hard to get electrician's fees out of them, but in many product liability cases enterprising lawyers get hold of a smoking gun (the IBM/Hitachi HD class action suit, for one) that implicates the company in negligent behavior. That case centered on company emails that showed IBM/Hitachi shipped drives that they knew to be bad. Buyers of said drives often suffered serious consequential damages.

If I have been following the threads correctly, there's real reason to believe that Smarthome is continuing to ship switches they have a fairly substantial reason to believe are defective. Usually it's not until someone got fired or PO'ed at the company that such a leaked memo appears. Concealment was an issue in the Big Tobacco suits - they KNEW smoking was bad, and they continued to pump cigarettes out the door while working very hard to conceal the scientific proof.

If the vendor behaves badly, the limited warranty won't exclude consequential damages in a number of states, of which I believe California is one. Then there are other states where jurors can decide not only the facts of a case, but the law as well. All bets are off in those states although judges rarely tell jurors of the awesome powers they possess. There's an interesting article here:

I'll just say that if there's proof that they knew they were shipping bad switches and some poor schmoe electrocutes himself swapping out two dozen "known bad" switches when he might never have bought them had he known of the defect, I would bet on the poor schmoe's estate and lawyer to recover substantial sums. That seems only reasonable to me, but then I'm very strongly pro-consumer. When I owned a business, it was another story! :-)

Dude. People sue just for fun. You owned a business so you must have run into the suit-happy customer. If not, you were very, very lucky. If someone paid an electrician to install the switches, and there were a lot of switches, you're talking about damages that will get you into virtually any US state's small claims court, some circuit courts and any TV court on the air, except, maybe, Divorce Court or Animal Court. I'll bet you could solicit testimony from the wives of any HA enthusiast about the pain and suffering involved in a malfunction lighting system that might even get you on Divorce Court! :-) I'd never consider myself suit-proof just based on a small dollar figure. I've been sued for under $1000. I'm sure I am not alone. All it takes is a highly pissed off plaintiff and a filing fee.

Speaking much more seriously, the wife of a (hypothetical, AFAIK) man who was killed replacing switches would have a hell of wrongful death case. Especially if it could be proved that replacing the switches was very likely outcome of Smarthome's decision to continue selling the switches even after the defect was revealed. I doubt they could convince a jury that the replacement wasn't an inevitable outcome. If I ever get near a Lexis terminal again, I'll look to see if anyone's filed. These kinds of recalls almost always involve at least the filing of suits, if not prolonged litigation.

There were some mighty PO'ed sounding people on one of the forums I looked at and I'll bet some of them consider a lost weekend a big issue. It may be that anyone who's bought switches after the problem became publicly known is entitled to more than a straight-up refund since Smarthome knew of the defect but continued to sell the items in question. I don't recall them posting "If you intend to run loads at half dim" (or whatever the conditions were that caused flickering) "please wait until the next revision" in their ads. The certainly could have made some sort of disclaimer I am not aware of at purchase time.

Not seeking "informed consent" may very cleanly negate their disclaimer of consequential damages because they've already acknowledged the problem but apparently are continuing to sell the old, 'known bad' switches. They can't have passed ETL muster yet, can they? Hmmm. I wouldn't want to be them right now.

I think for them to be suit-proof, they would have had to stop sales or in the very least clearly detail the problem as best they knew it to potential buyers. It doesn't seem as if they've done either, although I am sure their lawyer will point to their message board (and maybe even this thread!) as their disclaimer and notification. I suspect a jury would find that information should have been more prominently displayed, probably in the advertisements themselves.

I'm really surprised they didn't stop selling the switches, particularly when I think about the potential legal issues. I'll bet there were a least a couple of big meetings at HQ on the subject. If there's a wrongful death claim, those minutes will be subpoenaed in discovery. If those minutes or relevant emails say something dumb like "we knew that 2% of the end users would suffer this problem" then they've loaded and cocked the smoking gun. If they knew that someone was going to suffer as a result of their deliberate actions, then they're likely going to called on to make that 2% whole.

While I do agree with you that lone plaintiffs would have very little $ incentive to sue, the worst thing that could happen to Smarthome now is for a class action attorney to get wind of the recall. That's when the relatively small, 'unprofitable to litigate' claims whose small size had served to insulate them from legal action suddenly take on very serious proportions. Sadly, the CA lawyers will get at least $250K in legal fees and consumers like you will get a $5 to $50 coupon for more of the same product!

I wouldn't be surprised if some (probably more than one!) class action attorney scours Google Groups every day for the term "Class action lawsuit" or "product liability" and is already aiming an action at Smarthome. The kicker is how many they've sold. It's probably not even enough to entice a hungry class action lawyer.

Important Revision to Arrow Wound Instructions 1A:

Leave the arrow in unless it's poisoned-tip, was previously a wriggling snake in the hands of Thulsa Doom or it happens to be on fire!

-- Bobby G.

Insteon is still new and bugs are sure to appear. Had it not been for the availability of the now discontinued X10 translator (2414X) I wouldn't have jumped in. However, the X10 installation was getting progressively worse to the point where my wife was getting annoyed with it and my testing of UPB proved to be less than a reliable option. I ended up getting in on a developer's special from Smarthome which made completion of the conversion an offer too good to pass up.

Things have actually settled down to where, except fro running macros, things are fairly stable now. The mysterious "reprogramming" corrected itself and the flickering is a rare occurrence contained to just a few loads. IOW, even without RoZetta (a "true" X10 translator) things are actually better than the pre-Insteon X10 installation.

I concede that others may have more inconvenience or even costs in replacing a houseful of modules but growing pains are there with any new technology. As far as electrocuting oneself, hot wiring is neither good for the heart OR the modules. ALWAYS kill the breaker on the circuit you're working on - (do as I say, not as I do!). They do warn you to kill the power so I'm not sure they'd be held liable for someone not following instructions. BTW, they DO claim to have ETL approval.

No. I meant you said it in reference to X10. And I was pointing out that while there are known solutions, I (and other newbies) didn't know them until I (we) put in a lot of time. so there's a lot of time invested in using X10.

I only remember because I don't post often. I tend to remember the discussions I'm part of.

Both, but I had more trouble with smarthome stuff.

OK - I remember now. We were comparing Windows/Unix to X10 Insteon among many other excursions. In fact, we mostly had the same discussion then that we had yesterday! :-)

I think the general conclusion was that there's a lot of investment in any complex technical endeavor, and that's how we segued into the Windows/Anything Else discussion. I have no doubt that Smarthome will eventually work their problems out. Whether they become the pre-eminent HA protocol is still very much in doubt, at least in my mind. That's also the thread in which I said I'd still start a newbie on X-10 just because there's so much more troubleshooting help available for it all over the net.

I'm having buyer's remorse: I'm worried that my wife will actually come to like the Icon switches and make me replace all the Stanley X-10 gear. :-) We're used to the mushy pushbutton X-10 style but my MIL has yet to embrace them fully. That's another reason to keep the X-10!!!!! Still, at $20 a switch it was just the right choice for the situation.

That's the advantage of *not* being a compulsive poster like me! I can't help it though. I always come out of a discussion knowing more than when I went it. It's only when it gets snippy, rude or stupid that I feel compelled to remain silent.

Dan L's observations are right on the money, and to echo his words, to be fair, almost every Smarthome switch/module is a lot more complex than the simple X-10 circuitry. While only an EE could say for sure, it's entirely possible that their miniaturization efforts meant using parts that were closer to the make or break tolerance points. It seems to be the prevailing theory of what caused the flickering problem - an undersized choke coil. It's not a big leap to think that they may have been a little too aggressive in making the switches small.

Insteon's series of problems that don't afflict X-10 may only reflect the far longer debugging period that X-10's had available. Let's hope that's the case. I'd hate to think the design problems of the earlier SwitchLincs are still unresolved and haunting the new gear.

-- Bobby G.

I have a Beta copy now that I plan toplay around with this weekend. I ran it and it did go out and get all the data from the installed devices.

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