Speaker Placement NightMares

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I am very sorry to post such a long read.

I am a beginner at home audio.  I originally bought a pair of medium
front speakers and a sub to match.  Then I got an amp and 2 better
front speakers and a center. My plan is to use the lesser front
speakers as right and left surround speakers.  The only thing is the
Sub is that of a lesser series.  The Sub has a volume control a
frequency dial and a direct button.  The Amp allows me to set the
speakers to large or small and a crossover value.  The receiver is at
the back right of the room because that's where my satellite / antenna
/ digital projector are.  I put the base in the right rear next to the
receiver despite seeing most setup diagrams with it in the front of the
room. My living room and dining room are one room.  The dining area is
to the left of the sofa.  It is roughly a third of the room.  There are
2 windows in the room.  I will only be in this house for a year so I
changing the room itself isn't an option.  I just want the best sound
with what I have now.


 My questions are as follows:

What constitutes large and small in terms of speaker size?

How do I choose the best Crossover value for my system.

Is it okay to leave the sub in the right rear corner of the room?

There are no speakers in the dining area, should I move into that area?

Any help is much appreciated.



Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


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A speaker is considered "large" if it can dip down to around 20 Hz or so.
If your speaker can't get down this low with authority, let the subwoofer
handle it by setting that speaker to "small".  It's less stress on your
receiver, and hey, the sub was made to handle these low frequencies.  Most
speakers can handle low notes, but not with as much authority as a sub can.

Choose a crossover that suits your least performing speaker.  For example,
in my setup, my centre speaker goes down only to 60 Hz, while the rest of my
speakers go down further.  So I set my crossover at 80 Hz.  I'm not sure how
steep the "slope" is; it's not a brick wall, but you want to give it a bit
of room.  If you receiver offers crossovers for each individual speaker,
then do the same for each of them.

Leaving the sub in the right rear corner should be fine.  Trust your ears --  
if you don't like the sound, move it.  Sound at such low frequencies are
non-directional, so you can't tell from where they're coming.  Sub placement
is important, though.  Moving a sub just a few inches in any direction can
change the sound quite a bit.  Experiment with it and use whatever sounds
best to you.

Move into the dining area for what exactly?  I don't get what you're trying
to ask . . .

Good luck!

cheers,
vij




Re: Speaker Placement NightMares



Large and small have less to do with physical size than with the
speaker's ability to play the low notes. If you set your receiver to
"small" - it will not pass low frequencies to the main speakers. That's
where the cross-over adjustment comes in. Try starting with 100 MHz and
adjust till it sounds best to your ears in your room with your setup.
And yes, it should be fine to have the sub in the rear, maybe not
optimum but acceptable.

As far as speakers in the dining area, larger spaces tend to sound
better than smaller spaces. But always remember the SAF*. It's the
single biggest key to longterm enjoyment of your system....
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SAF = spouse acceptance factor


--
yustr
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Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


Quoted text here. Click to load it

I know you mean 100 Hz.  : )




Re: Speaker Placement NightMares




Vij, you mean your sub doesn't go that high? LOL. Thanks ....you're

right of course. I've been spending too much time with my computer and

not enough with my stereo...





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yustr

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Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


Yup Sorry!



Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


Thanks for hte reply!!  I totally agree with the SAF.!! Lol



Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


Thank you very much for the info. I am really overwhelmed by how
intricate this is.   I think I get the crossover idea.  The room where
I watch movies is both my living and dining area.  Imagine this when I
watch movies I am facing north.  From the west wall to the east wall is
the greatest distance in my room.  The western third of the room my
dining area and it is only separated by a small Japanese folding
screen.  The left from and surround speakers aren't in the dining area.
 They are on the border facing the sofa.  What I was getting at is
Should I place the speakers proportionate to the entire room or leave
the left speakers on the border?  I wish there was a way to post a jpg
on here because I could quickly post the room details with measurements
etc.

Hope this clarifies things.



Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Clarifies things for me.  I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, so your
description helped.  : )

I think you should keep the speakers proportionate to your HT area, not the
entire room.  Putting your front left speaker in the dining room isn't gonna
help anything.  You want the people in the main seating area to have the
best surround experience, so arrange all the speakers with your sofa as the
centre.

I'm constantly fiddling with my setup -- toeing in speakers, moving the sub,
adjusting crossover and settings -- cos I'm always on the lookout to make my
gear sound better.  It's easy to let the setup overwhelm you, but just take
it slowly, ask questions, try all kinds of adjustments, and trust your ears.
Good luck!

cheers,
vij




Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


Wow thanks for the fast reply!!!  I just translated the speaker details
into English. I hope it makes sense to someone.  It looks like my
surround speakers are the weakest at 45Hz.  I can set my crossover as
low as 60Hz the next is 80Hz.  Thanks for hte info on the sub setting I
pushed hte direct button.  Is it important if the front speakers are
close to the wall or not?



SURROUND
Type  2 ways * bus reflex type
Rated impedance  6 Omega
Largest input  80 W
Rated sensitivity level  83 dB/W/m
Rated frequency range  45 Hz - 100 kHz
Crossover frequency  7 kHz
Cabinet content volume  7.8 liter
Use speaker  Woofer 8cm A-OMF diaphragm 2
Tweeter - 2cm neo balance dome 1
Size  182 W952 H195 Dmm (the saran net * terminal projection
section including)
Mass  8.2 kg (1 unit)
Terminal  The gold-plating brass it starts shaving, screw system


SUB
Type  Amplifier built-in bus reflex type
Input sensitivity  2v (speaker input), 68mV (line input)
Input impedance  4.7k Omega (speaker input),54k Omega (line input)
Utility installed capacity  75w (5 Omega * JEITA)
Playback frequency range  30Hz - 200Hz (at the time of FILTER), 30Hz -
1kHz (at the time of DIRECT)
High cut-off filter  Variable (50 - 200Hz)
Cut-off filter change ON/OFF switch  0 (FILTER/DIRECT)
Cabinet content volume  16 liter
Maximum external size  236w371hx362dmm
Mass  13.0kg
Use speaker  20cm cone type
External input terminal  RCA pin input, one-touch type speaker input
terminal
External output terminal  RCA pin pre- output, one-touch type speaker
output terminal
Power source  100V (50/60Hz)
Electric power consumption  50W

FRONT
Type  2 ways * bus reflex type
Rated impedance  6 Omega
Largest input  120W
Rated sensitivity level  85.5dB/W/m
Rated frequency range  35hz - 40kHz
Crossover frequency  3kHz
Cabinet content volume  30.3 liter
Woofer  13cmA-OMF cone 2
Tweeter -  2.5cm software dome
External size  185w930H274dmm (the saran net * terminal projection
section including)
Mass  14.5kg

CENTER
Type  2 ways * bus reflex type
Rated impedance  6 Omega
Largest input  120W
Rated sensitivity level  86.5dB/W/m
Rated frequency range  58hz - 40kHz
Crossover frequency  3kHz
Cabinet content volume  6.1 liter
Use speaker  Woofer 13cmA-OMF cone 2
Tweeter - 2.5cm software dome
External size  500W146h168dmm (the saran net * terminal projection
section including)  
Mass  6.3 K g



Re: Speaker Placement NightMares




Or you can just switch your sub to "Direct" it has the same effect but

(probably) by-passes the internal crossover - which is not being used

anyway.

To post a picture, register at an online site like photobucket.com.

Load the pic and post the address here. (For example here's a pic of my

desktop, just copy the address into your browers address bar:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/lawrenceyu/desktop.jpg)


When I get home tonight I'll post a pic of my set up... Might be fun to

start such a thread...





--

yustr

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Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Switching the sub's output to Direct does bypass the internal crossover on
the sub, but I've read that turning up the dial on the sub to the maximum
means that the sub will absolutely not reproduce any sounds higher in
frequency than what's on the dial.  I could be wrong about that, but as it's
being bypassed anyway, there's no harm in turning it all the way up.

yustr, I'd post a pic of my gear, but mine is such a low- to mid-end setup.
Even describing it, it seems embarrassingly low-end:

Athena Audition speakers:  AS-B2 surrounds, AS-C1 centre (front and rear),
AS-F2 fronts
Athena Audition AS-P400 subwoofer
Kenwood RFU-6100 wireless unit for rear centre speaker (it's crap -- I'm on
the lookout for a better solution)
Monster HTS 850 home theatre powerbar (a present from my girlfriend -- awww
.. . .)
Pioneer DV-588A universal DVD player (thinking of upgrading to a Denon 2900
or 2910)
Scientific Atlanta 3000SD digital set top box
Sony Trinitron 27" 27FS12 CRT TV (five years I've had this sucker!)
Sony SLV-N750 VCR
Yamaha RX-V750 home theatre receiver

cheers,
vij




Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


I'm sorry but I couldn't tell you anything by looking at that model
information.  That's why I started reading online.  I was on ultimateAV
and it was so technical I almost went into a coma from concentrating
too hard.  Also you'd have to be a millionaire to afford all that
stuff.  I managed to make a diagram of the room.  I hope it helps.

http://members5.clubphoto.com/sean1017199/3734330/guest-3dd9.phtml

There are 2 almost identical diagrams.  One is metric.  If anyone has
any suggestions please let me know.  I was thinking about placing 2
rear surrounds on the window sill.  My Amp can do 7.1 but I wasn't sure
what type of speaker to use for the rear.  I was hoping to get by with
a couple of cheap pc speakers until I get some more dough.

Thanks for everyone's help!!!

CodFather



Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Sure you can put the rears on the window sill.  Everybody's gonna say they
should be high up, like six feet high, and that's true.  But the truth is it
still works if they're a bit closer to ear level.  They work better when
they're higher up, mind you.  The window sill should be fine, but if you can
get them elevated, do it definitely.  PC speakers, well, depending on what
kind, they might work, but don't push them too hard.  Save up for some
bookshelf speakers to use for your rears.

I would like to say though, that 5.1 is perfectly adequate.  Movies are
encoded in 6.1 at the most (although with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, there will be
true 7.1) and the rear channel(s) are for the most part just ambience.  You
won't really lose anything if you don't have them.  So don't feel as though
you MUST have 7.1 in order for your home theatre to be perfect and stunning
and wonderful.  Of course, 7.1 is still better than 5.1, but I'm just
sayin', you know.

cheers,
vij




Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


Some of that is badly translated.  ; )  No speaker in the world goes up to
100 kHz, and impedence is rated in Ohms.  At any rate, if your centre
speaker goes down to 58 Hz, then I would recommend against the 60, and start
with 80.  You can move up from there, but use whatever sounds best to your
ears.

I've read that the closer the front speaker is to the wall, the more
exaggerated the bass will sound from those fronts.  If you like the sound of
it, great -- leave it.  The back of my fronts are about ten inches from the
wall, and they sound fine to me.  The experts at Polk Audio recommend that
the fronts be placed at least two feet from any wall, large piece of
furniture, and especially corners.  If you have a small- to mid-sized room
to play with, like I have, this can be near impossible to do.  Don't let
them sit too close to your TV (keep the tweeters 6 to 8 feet apart), and
have them sit a few inches in front of the front of your TV.  But like I
always say, play around with placement and use whatever sounds best to you.


Wow thanks for the fast reply!!!  I just translated the speaker details
into English. I hope it makes sense to someone.  It looks like my
surround speakers are the weakest at 45Hz.  I can set my crossover as
low as 60Hz the next is 80Hz.  Thanks for hte info on the sub setting I
pushed hte direct button.  Is it important if the front speakers are
close to the wall or not?



SURROUND
Type  2 ways * bus reflex type
Rated impedance  6 Omega
Largest input  80 W
Rated sensitivity level  83 dB/W/m
Rated frequency range  45 Hz - 100 kHz
Crossover frequency  7 kHz
Cabinet content volume  7.8 liter
Use speaker  Woofer 8cm A-OMF diaphragm 2
Tweeter - 2cm neo balance dome 1
Size  182 W952 H195 Dmm (the saran net * terminal projection
section including)
Mass  8.2 kg (1 unit)
Terminal  The gold-plating brass it starts shaving, screw system


SUB
Type  Amplifier built-in bus reflex type
Input sensitivity  2v (speaker input), 68mV (line input)
Input impedance  4.7k Omega (speaker input),54k Omega (line input)
Utility installed capacity  75w (5 Omega * JEITA)
Playback frequency range  30Hz - 200Hz (at the time of FILTER), 30Hz -
1kHz (at the time of DIRECT)
High cut-off filter  Variable (50 - 200Hz)
Cut-off filter change ON/OFF switch  0 (FILTER/DIRECT)
Cabinet content volume  16 liter
Maximum external size  236w371hx362dmm
Mass  13.0kg
Use speaker  20cm cone type
External input terminal  RCA pin input, one-touch type speaker input
terminal
External output terminal  RCA pin pre- output, one-touch type speaker
output terminal
Power source  100V (50/60Hz)
Electric power consumption  50W

FRONT
Type  2 ways * bus reflex type
Rated impedance  6 Omega
Largest input  120W
Rated sensitivity level  85.5dB/W/m
Rated frequency range  35hz - 40kHz
Crossover frequency  3kHz
Cabinet content volume  30.3 liter
Woofer  13cmA-OMF cone 2
Tweeter -  2.5cm software dome
External size  185w930H274dmm (the saran net * terminal projection
section including)
Mass  14.5kg

CENTER
Type  2 ways * bus reflex type
Rated impedance  6 Omega
Largest input  120W
Rated sensitivity level  86.5dB/W/m
Rated frequency range  58hz - 40kHz
Crossover frequency  3kHz
Cabinet content volume  6.1 liter
Use speaker  Woofer 13cmA-OMF cone 2
Tweeter - 2.5cm software dome
External size  500W146h168dmm (the saran net * terminal projection
section including)
Mass  6.3 K g





Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


one more thing, my sub has a hz dial.  what shoul it be set at?



Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


Quoted text here. Click to load it

If you're adjusting your crossover at the receiver, then set the dial on the
sub at the highest it will go.




Re: Speaker Placement NightMares


I posted with the diagrams above by mistake.  Please read the above
post.

Cod



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