X10 Controller Oddness?

Giving up wasn't a great option for me either. The wiring is 60 years old and I didn't want to have to fuss with it to change out switches. Had I bought Insteon instead of the XTB, I probably would have had to pull the switches twice because of their big upgrade a.k.a. recall over the dimming problem.

"Dual Skinnies" install quite easily. I had to swap out some single width breakers for duals, as I too was out of circuits. It should take a licensed electrician 5 minutes, tops. It took a little longer for me since the new breakers looked quite different from the old ones and hooked onto the power bus a little differently. I ended up added four new GFCI protected outlets and replaced single width breakers that had been tripped so many times that the white lettering had worn off. )-:

Now we can use the toaster oven, the microwave and the electric griddle all at the same time, too, so there was a great SAF boost to getting the electrical upgrade. Another circuit powers the new outside CFL fixtures because the old circuits didn't bring a neutral to the switch. All of this work was inspired by the arrival of the XTB-IIR. From my experiences with the non-coupler XTB version, I realized that a high-powered repeater/coupler would eliminate most of my problems and it did. It's *so* nice not to have to remember that only the mini-controller in the bedroom can reach the hallway light, etc, etc.

Bobby G.

In most US homes that's the case. The XTB-IIR is usually installed connected to a double pole breaker that can shut down both phases if either protected circuit overloads.

Ah, the Dance of The Dead Signal begins! (-: Seriously speaking, without coupling and amplification, these sorts of "works from here but not from there" issues only mushroom. Plug in a noisy CFL or a signal sucking UPS in a "critical" location and a lot of stuff can suddenly just stop working.

One of the "workarounds" I used was to install a number of mini-timers throughout the house on various branch circuits so that when we were away, the lights would come on around the house, not just the ones nearest the controller. That was actually one of the more effective workarounds because the timers were cheap ($18 each when RadioShack was closing out X-10 stuff) and they didn't interfere with each other. When we weren't on travel, I disabled the timers by placing them behind X-10 filters so they would maintain their timer settings but not be able to turn on any lights. A kludge, to be sure, but vastly superior to the multiple mechanical wheel timers we *had* been using. It's much nicer to let a centralized home controller do that sort of thing. The XTB is really useful for the CM11A because that device has one of the lowest voltage levels of all the X-10 transmitters.

)-: I tried hard to strip away the "too technical for beginners" stuff, but it appears I need to try again. I appreciate the feedback. It took me a while to spin up on the whole subject, but I am sure you'll get there. I'll have to give a thought to writing a more basic description of how it all works. For now, there's a good explanation here about couplers and phases:

a.k.a.

The only soldering skills I have are bad ones so I've bought my units from Jeff fully assembled and tested. There are few things in the world I feel as comfortable recommending as the XTB. That's because Jeff is incredi bly thorough and tests each unit he assembles and he stands behind his work

110%. The only complaints I've heard about it come from BK (that's not Burger King, BTW!) and he doesn't even OWN one.

I've tried to convince Jeff to build an RF coupled XTB-IIRF that doesn't require installation at the panel, but he's declined because of all the issues involved getting FCC certification. Still, as a guy who put off going into the breaker panel for ten years, I believe there's a very big market for a coupler/repeater like the IIR that can be installed just by plugging in two units on different electrical phases. I estimate that there may be as many as 1 million X-10 users with signal problems that either can't or won't add a 240VAC outlet. For renters, the budget minded, electrophobes and others, modifying the circuit breaker panel just isn't in the cards.

That's correct. I went that route in the beginning, buying six(!) XTB units for all my "main" controllers. At that time, the XTB repeater/coupler was still in development so there wasn't much choice. Since I was faced with $1000's in switchover costs to leave X-10, it didn't seem like a exorbitant expenditure. I also thought it important to encourage Jeff to design more X-10 gear and buying his products seemed the simplest way to do that. When the IIR's predecessor was born, I bought that unit and finally, the IIR. The cost never bothered me much because I was certain they would always have a high resale value and the XTB's saved me from having to scrap my whole X-10 setup.

Yes - quite correct. The IIR "listens" to the powerline and repeats and amplifies any X-10 powerline transmission it hears. It also has a jack for a controller like the TW523 (used by many OEM's to interface alarms, whole house controllers, pool controllers and other devices to the powerline). Since the best place to "inject" an X-10 signal is right near the breaker box, I have my HomeVision whole house controller (sort of like a CM11A on steroids - lots of steroids!) plugged into the digital outlet on the IIR. The IIR also has an amplified AC outlet which means that plugging in a mini-controller, CM11A or other X-10 transmitter into that outlet amplifies the signal, just like the simpler XTB. I have all my important controllers, my whole house RF transmitter and lots of ControlLinc Maxi's feeding into XTBs throughout the house. I don't *really* need the standalone XTB's anymore, but I believe that using them makes problems from noise and signal suckers far less likely.

While I considered installing the IIR directly into the breaker box, I ended up following Jeff's advice and mounted a new 240VAC outlet for the IIR right near the circuit breaker panel. Since I have one of the first repeater/couplers in addition to the IIR, I thought that using plug and outlet would enable me to swap out the unit or deactivate it easily for testing more easily than a direct mount. Also, when it's time to move, I can unplug the IIR in seconds leaving only a 240VAC outlet behind.

-- Bobby G.

The XTB-IIR should be connected to the breakers by a standard 220VAC outlet and wouldn't fit easily in the average breaker box.

Nonsense? I have a small inkling of the time and effort Jeff's put into the design and building of the device and his qualifications. That means a lot more to me that UL putting its very expensive alleged "stamp of approval" on something. I've got four UL listed devices that have failed in spectacular and predictable ways. One was a simple outlet "extender" that used a press-fit bus bar which any damn fool - except, apparently, UL Labs - could tell would work loose over time. When it worked loose enough, it blew out with impressive force when my wife plugged her hair dryer into it.

UL approves soldering irons, hot melt glue guns and powerful crosscut paper shredders WITHOUT off switches. Today, my Global 75X paper shredder jammed and the motor began to smoke as I worked the AUTO/ON - BACKWARDS - FORWARD switch to no avail. After the smoke cleared, I rewired the unit to a powerstrip so I could kill it immediately if that happens again. I already rewired both the glue gun and the soldering iron, both potential sources of ignition, with line cord switches. As badly designed as they are, they are UL listed. (Ptooey!) So freaking what?

When I beta tested the XTB, Jeff and I had many, many discussions about UL or ETL "listing" (it's only that, and not an "approval" BTW). Since I had worked for a law firm for 10 years, I really leaned on him to get a waiver from customers so that they acknowledge its lack of a UL listing. Two very important legal protections against unjustified lawsuits are "informed consent" and "full disclosure" and I believe that Jeff has very conscientiously addressed both, unlike some other small "manufacturers." He knew being upfront about the UL listing would cost him sales, but he also knew it was the right thing to do.

Jeff has been designing gear like this for one of the nation's most prestigious research labs for over 30 years, IIRC. You need only look at the design, construction and assembly of the units to know that they aren't just things he knocked out overnight with no thought to safety. During the beta phase I explored as many possible failure modes as I could think of with Jeff, and I am certain that the unit will fail in the safe mode if it fails, and that it's fused against overloads so that any sort of surge damage can be repaired easily. I wish I had as much faith in the safety of my cars as I do in the XTBs. Detroit's way of handling things is diametrically opposed to Jeff's. They'll only go into full disclosure mode after the 100th person is killed in a roll-over accident caused by bad design and deniability is no longer a credible option.

So when you label what's really more a labor of love than a money-making endeavor "nonsense" it makes me wonder how you define that word. Nonsense, in my dictionary, more aptly covers the utterings of someone who heaps scorn and derision on something they've never used or or even seen close-up. Especially when that "nonsense" device has saved people like me thousands of dollars in equipment costs and 100 of hours in time *not* upgrading to a more expensive HA protocol.

That's great advice from someone who hasn't even seen or used the XTB and wouldn't be underwriting (pun intended) the serious cost of the changeover. X-10 works just fine for me and for many others here. It works *especially* well for people like Bruce Robin and me who have added the XTB to their systems and who rely on powerful whole-house controllers like Stargate

Homevision

and Homeseer.

I can control 256 devices with X-10. How many units can your *incredibly* overpriced Lutron Radio RA system use? IIRC, it's a very puny 32 loads. I also seem to recall the control options are outrageously limited. Can Radio RA shut down the water supply from 1000 miles away? I doubt it, but my X-10 system can. Do you have universal modules that can drive non-X-10 equipment via X-10 controllers? Do they only cost $20 each?

How much does a simple time controller cost for Radio RA? Judging by the few prices I see published (not a good sign, IMHO because it means there are manufacturer price control in effect) what costs me $40 in X-10 gear costs RA users $1,280.

People who are thinking of following your advice to abandon a true home automation protocol for one that basically controls just lights should check out these prices:

$32.00 --- Lutron RA-AD RadioRa Accessory Dimmer for Multi-Location Dimming $320.00 --- Lutron RA-REP-WH RadioRa Radio Frequency (RF) Signal Repeater $40.00 --- Lutron RA-VCTX-WH RadioRa Car Visor Control Transmitter $208.00 --- Lutron RAMC-MFE-WH RadioRa Multi Function Entry Master Control $1,280.00 --- Lutron RA-SBT-CHR RadioRa Chronos System Bridge and Timeclock (Provides a powerful, built-in astronomical timeclock that simulates daily routines with the "Away" mode, giving the appearance that someone is home.)

OUCH!!!!! I'd say you spent a lot of money to insure the sort of reliability that you *could* have gotten with X-10 had you waited until the XTB came along before you switched.

And before you say "who needs 256 unit control?" I can honestly say that I do. Today, I started programming my X-10 capable HomeVision controller so that when I press certain X-10 codes, the HV unit sends out IR commands to the various AV devices. This means when I exit a room, I can have HV turn off any devices or lights that were on and restore them to their previous state when I return. It also means I can Velcro a tiny $5 keychain remote to my PC keyboard to mute the stereo or TV with a single button push. Try something like that with Radio RA. With 256 addresses, I can do all sorts of things that would be impossible with a 32 load maximum controller.

-- Bobby G.

I'm back now, but it will be at least a week before I catch up with the orders that came in while I was gone.

My soldering iron will be getting a workout over the next few days.

Thanks to all of you!

Jeff

Yes, the smaller XTB only boosts the output of a transmitter that is plugged into it.

The XTB-IIR is a repeater. It can also directly boost a transmitter plugged into it, or act as the powerline interface for a higher end controller, such as HomeVision, Ocelot, or Stargate.

Other than insuring it is wired per code, there is no reason why it needs a dedicated set of breakers. The XTB-IIR only consumes about a watt quescent, and about 6 watts during transmission.

I recommend the receptacle so it is easy to disconnect if necessary. There have been several firmware upgrades that either resolved particular issues or added capabilities.. From my experience with a SquareD breaker that didn't disconnect power when switched off, I think it best to have the unit totally disconnected when changing the PIC. As many of us here know, nothing should be installed inside an electrical panel other than the wiring itself.

UL approved components are used in the high-voltage section. Both the XTB and XTB-IIR are fused. Trace separation in the high voltage section exceeds UL requirements. I did investigate UL testing and also an alternate testing laboratory, but the cost was prohibitive. The price of these units would have to double to ever recover the cost, and that would put them beyond the reach of most X10 users. Most of us don't have deep pockets like some of the other automation users who contribute to this group.

Those units have inexpensive transformerless power supplies. The XTB and XTB-IIR both have transformer power supplies that can deliver at least 20 times more X10 signal energy to the powerline than the units you describe.

Jeff

Jeff,

Just curious. How much does UL want for the initial certification? Once that's done would you have to pay annually to maintain the listing? Also, would they require re-certification after firmware changes? I know that with security and fire alarms every minor change in hardware or firmware has to be certified. Even the manuals go through UL. I don't know if it's quite that bad with non-life safety components though.

UL estimated 6K to 14K, depending on the level of testing. In addition, they require a semi-annual inspection of the "production facility" to maintain the rating. I don't know how much that costs. The other independent testing laboratory estimated $4800 to $5500 just for testing, plus annual inspections. My entire net from this project in 2006 was $2433. Clearly, prices would have to increase to cover testing.

A couple of XTB-II/R owners did their own "safety testing" by either losing the neutral reference or connecting the 120V input directly across 240V. That pops the MOVs, and causes one or both fuses to open. The carbonized MOVs can look ugly, but the unit is easily repaired. The cases on all units are UL rated flame-retardant ABS plastic designed to contain any major failure. Other than smell, there was no evidence of the damage until the cases were opened.

The 3-phase unit has components rated for 240V operation, so a lost neutral will only result in the unit not working. Obviously, there is no overvoltage issue when the unit is connected properly.

Jeff

I was just curious how much they wanted. I never doubted you were making something safe. If I were planning to use X10 in my projects, the first thing I'd order is your XTB-II/R. As it happens, I'm pretty well set on going the ZWave route. The next decision is how much I want to do with the lighting. There are nearly 100 circuits I might want to control eventually but only about 40 are critical. I've sold a fair number of Leviton Vizia RF (Z-Wave) systems and so far there've been no problems.

I realize you do a lot with X10 but have you played with Z-Wave at all yet?

No, I haven't. Like most X10 users, I have a significant investment in X10 equipment. If we moved to another house, I would still go with the Leviton X10 compatible switches. They have true rocker action, and have been 100% reliable. Why change to a different system when this one works perfectly?

Jeff