best deal on lutron radio ra?

Look into UPB (Universal Powerline Bus). It's the next generation of powerline control. X-10 will die a slow and deserved death.

Or Z-Wave which is is a Zigbee variant that's here now.

------------------------------------ Dean Roddey Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems

It's already been doing that for what, 40 years? And yet it's still the most widely used technology in the HA industry. :(

Bill,

I'm switching from X-10 to UPB. What's nice is that there are a few manufacturers of UPB products, and most of the must-have stuff is already available. Not only are there switches, lamp/appliance modules, and scene controllers, but there are outlets and inline hard-wire modules and a cool I/O module which is like a mix of universal modules and powerflashes. The options for the 3 inputs on this module are contact, phone ring, voltage detect, audio sense (-30 or -10 dBV), current sense, or doorbell. More stuff to come, too--I can't wait.

It's much cheaper than RadioRA. So far, it's been 100% reliable for me too.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel more comfortable with a reliable powerline solution. With the proliferation of electronics communicating wirelessly these days, who knows what future device could interfere with your house? It's like the X-10 worry that the next thing you plug in will take down your house.

Yeah, and shit's the most widely produced substance on earth. Quantity doesn't equate to quality.

That the market hasn't chosen something better has had many reasons. Most of which could probably be summed up by price. X-10 survived because it was cheap. Damn near anything else could succeed even if it only 'sucked differently' but it had the same price-point. Sadly most other efforts failed to hit the right price point.

But what really sucks about X-10, beyond the incredibly annoying inconsistencies in operation, is their feel and operation. The buttons have always felt cheap. That they didn't WORK reliably is one thing. But that they failed to work in ways people expect is even worse. Those ugly-ass buttons, the remotes you have to press, and press, and press, modules flipping on/off seemingly at random. Noise and phase voodoo, it all adds up... to a BIG negative.

I want some dimmers that have good button feel, work in scene configurations and actually work reliably. This most certainly ain't X10. None of the aftermarket swtiches work any better because of their dependence on the X-10 protocol and other powerline stuff seems no better.

I like that Radio RA has a friendly set of dimmers and scene controllers. I can put 'em on the wall and have to do nothing for normal people to use them without instructions. Sure, they're expensive, that's what I asked the question.

If/when/ever zigbee gets off the ground and someone makes decent switches and scene controllers then I'd certainly like to take a look at it. Economies of scale, open standards and a wide-range of participating vendors are all prime reasons to look forward to it. Z-wave seems like a fine idea but I've seen the switches and didn't like them. Nor are there any in-wall scene controllers.

Meanwhile I've had 15 years of putting up with X-10 and I have no desire to continue. I want something that just works, if it costs me a lot more then I simply want to find the best deal.

-Bill Kearney

I wasn't defending it. I don't like X10 and I rarely even comment on it. I was only stating that I don't beliieve it's going away any time soon.

That's one reason. It's also fairly simple to get started using X10 so a lot of people have chosen it. Most of the other technologies, up until just recently at laeast, have entailed a steeper learning curve. I believe that Z-Wave will take a major chunk out of X10's pie over the next few years as more products become available.

If price were the only concern there would be no Camry's or Odyssey's -- only Carollas and Civics. I agree that price is one of the major points but quality issues become more important as the price gap to the next level narrows. Look for better than current prices and a wider product array with Z-Wave pretty soon.

I don't like Lutron because of the lousy service -- no, make that the total lack of service -- they gave my church when we had problems with a Lutron commercial dimming system. I also think that Radio RA is over priced. Its expansion capabilities are questionable, too. When I tried to get answers regarding an expanded RA's control capabilities I got a lot of non-responsive replies from the RA salesman. This was also indicative of a poor attitude toward prospective clients and dealers -- enough to make me stear clear as a dealer.

Same here.

I don't want anybody to confuse X-10 with UPB. They are both powerline products but that is where the similarity ends. UPB is MUCH more robust with a much greater command set allowable.

X-10 had a strong patent, and UPB uses the same principles that X-10 has for years. Only with the expiration of the patent development has thrived and products are flooding the markets with much more modern technology.

RF is cool too, but as Mark points out it has to satisfy both the performance, price and appearance needs of the consumer.

Except Australia

Eh, powerline as reliable? I've not found that to be the case. Line noise and other factors have plagued PLC forever. While the RF spectrum is not without it's issues for a single family home it can work well. In a crowded condo or apartment building it's another matter but that's also going to be the case with PLC as well.

But what really drives my interest is actual attention to use by non-savvy personnel. The switchgear on most home automation systems just sucks. Combine that with various oddball interfaces and it becomes something that normal people end up hating. They just want to whack a switch and have the lights WORK. The scene controllers for Radio RA come the closest I've seen to anything approaching that. At least without getting into even higher-end systems like Vantage or Crestron.

"Soon" is a word that's been heard for way too many years in the home automation realm.

I'll take your word for it. My recent phone calls with Radio RA support folks were VERY helpful. Their rep went so far as to take my number, call around for local sources AND call me back within a half-hour. One might guess this being possible because of the obscene profit margins on the equipment. I did find, however, that no retail or distributor personnel knew WTF they were talking about regarding it. Not that they knew anything about other systems either.

As for expansion, yeah, there do seem to be limitations. That and the interfacing hardware is even MORE obscenely overpriced. But for lighting I'm unlikely to exceed it's limits anytime soon.

Yeah, it's the old "good, fast, cheap... pick two" conundrum.

-Bill

Given how well my previous attempt to help was taken, I hate to even contribute anything else... But, from having done a driver for RA, my understanding is that it supports 32 units (dimmers or switches), and you can bridge two systems together for 64. That's just going by what I remember from having done the driver, and maybe there are other issues involved. But

------------------------------------- Dean Roddey Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems

You're confusing "powerline" with "X-10".

Correction: line noise and other factors have plagued X-10 forever. UPB just works.

UPB can handle 63,750 devices. I'm sure you'd be able to make it work in a high-density situation.

sucks.

You'll have to define what you mean by "suck". There are many manufacturers of UPB devices (HAI, PCS, Simply Automated, Web Mountain), all of which have different product lines.

This has been my experience with UPB. Don't dismiss UPB out of hand, just because powerline reminds you of X-10. UPB is a different animal.

- Mark.

Everyone has a bad day... on both sides of a conversation.

Even 32 isn't all that much of a restriction when handling just lighting. Going further into automating outlets and appliances could certainly be a problem.

Given how hideously expensive the Radio RA stuff is I'm still willing to consider other solutions. I've found the switch feel and operation on all X-10 based stuff to be unacceptable. The current z-wave stuff isn't much better (perhaps "less worse?"). Does anyone else make the same sort of wall scene controllers and self-programmable dimmers that a Radio RA system provides? Wired or wireless but without doing home-run rewiring.

It's the combination of flexible wall-mounted scene controllers, good switch feel and self-programmable dimmer levels that make it appealing. Being able to adjust the dimmer level right on the faceplate without having to jump through programming hoops is a nice feature. Being able to control several dimmers together on a wall-mounted scene controller is likewise important. Who else's scene controllers are similarly flexible?

-Bill Kearney