Yet another price per drop question

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When you refer to x dollars per drop are you talking about a physical
location or the actual number of terminated runs?  For example if a single
location has both a data and a phone line is that one or two drops?

--

Rob




Re: Yet another price per drop question
Robert R Kircher, Jr. wrote:


> When you refer to x dollars per drop are you talking about a physical
> location or the actual number of terminated runs?  For example if a
> single
> location has both a data and a phone line is that one or two drops?

Your example is two (2) separate drops, and you should price them this
way, too. Each has its own cable, jack, port on the patch panel. The share
a faceplate, but that's a $1.20 item, which is negligible compared to
other, separate, costs.

--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
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Re: Yet another price per drop question
Robert R Kircher, Jr. wrote:
> When you refer to x dollars per drop are you talking about a physical
> location or the actual number of terminated runs?  For example if a single
> location has both a data and a phone line is that one or two drops?
>
I charge them as two drops.  You would not believe the amount of people
ask me why it is that way. LOL

Im like, well you have an extra 250 feet of plenum cabling, jack, and
more work installing 2 cables than one cable.

Joe Perkowski


Re: Yet another price per drop question
Pulling two cables to s single location is not as much work as
installing one cable to one location and another cable to another
location.

When I'm pricing a job, I consider the number of locations to be wired
(regardless of the number of cables going to that location), the total
number of cables, and the number of times I'll have to pull cables to a
location (in the event that I can't pull all of them at once).

Why can't I pull all of the cables to a location at the same time?
It's either too difficult to pull them as a one-man operation, or I
don't have enough boxes or reels to pull from.

I don't usually plan on pulling more than 8 or 10 cables at a time, but
it really depends on how far the run is and how many turns I have to
make.



Re: Yet another price per drop question
Michael Quinlan wrote:


> Pulling two cables to s single location is not as much work as
> installing one cable to one location and another cable to another
> location.

True, but if someone is asking you "what is the price per drop?". It is
MUCH safer to give out the price for the individual cable. You will (if
lucky) end up with some little spare change by saving some time pulling or
at least make what you were hoping for. You may not even save ANY time at
all, depending on whether or not you have to pay installers (if other than
yourself) in hourly, half day or full day increments. All of this is
extremely difficult (and too intimate for your business) to explain to a
customer. Therefore, I would set it straight from the beginning: one drop
means one cable, one jack, one patch panel port. If it just happens to be
in the same faceplate with other cables, well, it will not affect the
price.

All of this applies, of course, if talking about pricing out reasonably
limited amount of cables. On larger amount of cables the customer is
rightfully expecting some economy of scale, but it is normally not what
people are interested in when asking about single drop price. The single
drop price is usually brought up when expecting just a few additional
drops here and there.

--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide
-------------------------------------





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Re: Yet another price per drop question
> Michael Quinlan wrote:
>
>
>> Pulling two cables to s single location is not as much work as
>> installing one cable to one location and another cable to another
>> location.
>
> True, but if someone is asking you "what is the price per drop?". It is
> MUCH safer to give out the price for the individual cable. You will (if
> lucky) end up with some little spare change by saving some time pulling or
> at least make what you were hoping for. You may not even save ANY time at
> all, depending on whether or not you have to pay installers (if other than
> yourself) in hourly, half day or full day increments. All of this is
> extremely difficult (and too intimate for your business) to explain to a
> customer. Therefore, I would set it straight from the beginning: one drop
> means one cable, one jack, one patch panel port. If it just happens to be
> in the same faceplate with other cables, well, it will not affect the
> price.
>
> All of this applies, of course, if talking about pricing out reasonably
> limited amount of cables. On larger amount of cables the customer is
> rightfully expecting some economy of scale, but it is normally not what
> people are interested in when asking about single drop price. The single
> drop price is usually brought up when expecting just a few additional
> drops here and there.
>


Thanks dmitri and everyone else, for the info, this is what I expected but I
wanted to make sure.  BTW I agree with you,  after all every wire pulled
needs to be terminated at both ends and tested and IMHO terminating and
testing is the real job anyway.  I also agree with you on the economies of
scale.   I can see a large job getting way out of hand very quickly.  I can
also imagine that the type of client would play into your final pricing as
well.  Many small/midsize companies need the drops but certainly can't
afford a price per drop that a larger company could.

In any event thanks again for the info.

--

Rob




Re: Yet another price per drop question
Michael Quinlan wrote:
> Pulling two cables to s single location is not as much work as
> installing one cable to one location and another cable to another
> location.

Of course not, but, I always explain this to my customers.  For some
strange reason, they think the 2nd cable is a freebie.  It isnt though,
I still have to pay the the cable and jack.

> When I'm pricing a job, I consider the number of locations to be wired
> (regardless of the number of cables going to that location), the total
> number of cables, and the number of times I'll have to pull cables to a
> location (in the event that I can't pull all of them at once).

I also do this, but, most important to me is the cable lengths.  I
charge more for runs beyond 200 feet, compared to runs shorter than 200
feet.  The price per drop price has become very competitive here in NY.

> Why can't I pull all of the cables to a location at the same time?
> It's either too difficult to pull them as a one-man operation, or I
> don't have enough boxes or reels to pull from.

Well, you see if I get a job for like 12 drops, where all cables are
about 80 - 90 feet in length.  Ill  build an extra box into the job, so
I dont have to waste time pulling from one box.  I always do this.

> I don't usually plan on pulling more than 8 or 10 cables at a time, but
> it really depends on how far the run is and how many turns I have to
> make.
Ya thats about it with me too.





Re: Yet another price per drop question
So what's a drop going for in NY ?

> Michael Quinlan wrote:
> > Pulling two cables to s single location is not as much work as
> > installing one cable to one location and another cable to another
> > location.
>
> Of course not, but, I always explain this to my customers.  For some
> strange reason, they think the 2nd cable is a freebie.  It isnt though,
> I still have to pay the the cable and jack.
>
> > When I'm pricing a job, I consider the number of locations to be wired
> > (regardless of the number of cables going to that location), the total
> > number of cables, and the number of times I'll have to pull cables to a
> > location (in the event that I can't pull all of them at once).
>
> I also do this, but, most important to me is the cable lengths.  I
> charge more for runs beyond 200 feet, compared to runs shorter than 200
> feet.  The price per drop price has become very competitive here in NY.
>
> > Why can't I pull all of the cables to a location at the same time?
> > It's either too difficult to pull them as a one-man operation, or I
> > don't have enough boxes or reels to pull from.
>
> Well, you see if I get a job for like 12 drops, where all cables are
> about 80 - 90 feet in length.  Ill  build an extra box into the job, so
> I dont have to waste time pulling from one box.  I always do this.
>
> > I don't usually plan on pulling more than 8 or 10 cables at a time, but
> > it really depends on how far the run is and how many turns I have to
> > make.
> Ya thats about it with me too.
>
>
>




Re: Yet another price per drop question
Sonco wrote:
> So what's a drop going for in NY ?
>
>
>>Michael Quinlan wrote:
>>
>>>Pulling two cables to s single location is not as much work as
>>>installing one cable to one location and another cable to another
>>>location.
>>
>>Of course not, but, I always explain this to my customers.  For some
>>strange reason, they think the 2nd cable is a freebie.  It isnt though,
>>I still have to pay the the cable and jack.
>>
>>
>>>When I'm pricing a job, I consider the number of locations to be wired
>>>(regardless of the number of cables going to that location), the total
>>>number of cables, and the number of times I'll have to pull cables to a
>>>location (in the event that I can't pull all of them at once).
>>
>>I also do this, but, most important to me is the cable lengths.  I
>>charge more for runs beyond 200 feet, compared to runs shorter than 200
>>feet.  The price per drop price has become very competitive here in NY.
>>
>>
>>>Why can't I pull all of the cables to a location at the same time?
>>>It's either too difficult to pull them as a one-man operation, or I
>>>don't have enough boxes or reels to pull from.
>>
>>Well, you see if I get a job for like 12 drops, where all cables are
>>about 80 - 90 feet in length.  Ill  build an extra box into the job, so
>>I dont have to waste time pulling from one box.  I always do this.
>>
>>
>>>I don't usually plan on pulling more than 8 or 10 cables at a time, but
>>>it really depends on how far the run is and how many turns I have to
>>>make.
>>
>>Ya thats about it with me too.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Well, it can be anywhere from $85 to $135 for Cat 5e depending on the
customer.

I usually sell 1 Cat 5e drop $95 to $110.  This includes cable,
installation, jack, termination and testing.

A LOT of people are putting Cat 6 in NYC, but, I cant sell one foot to a
school district of that stuff, except for gigabit runs between close
closets.



Re: Yet another price per drop question
Perkowski wrote:


> A LOT of people are putting Cat 6 in NYC, but, I cant sell one foot to
> a
> school district of that stuff, except for gigabit runs between close
> closets.

Well, CAT6 sells to schools pretty well in my opinion. Besides, in most
recent school bids CAT6 is the one that gets specified. I would guess it's
not because CAT6 suddenly found its place in the cable plant (IMHO it's
still a redundant link between CAT5E and CAT6+ (E? A?)) but because people
feel safer when putting something relatively new into a new construction
project. This way they think they will not have to go back and uproot
everything in just a few years.

Well, again, I see no shortage in school CAT6 project, so maybe you should
tweak something in your selling process?

Good luck!
--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide
-------------------------------------





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Re: Yet another price per drop question
> Perkowski wrote:
>
>
>> A LOT of people are putting Cat 6 in NYC, but, I cant sell one foot to
>> a
>> school district of that stuff, except for gigabit runs between close
>> closets.
>
> Well, CAT6 sells to schools pretty well in my opinion. Besides, in most
> recent school bids CAT6 is the one that gets specified. I would guess it's
> not because CAT6 suddenly found its place in the cable plant (IMHO it's
> still a redundant link between CAT5E and CAT6+ (E? A?)) but because people
> feel safer when putting something relatively new into a new construction
> project. This way they think they will not have to go back and uproot
> everything in just a few years.
>
> Well, again, I see no shortage in school CAT6 project, so maybe you should
> tweak something in your selling process?
>
> Good luck!

Are you going with CAT 6 wire and CAT 5E jacks and patch panels?

I looked at CAT 6 for my project and found it to be almost twice as
expensive as CAT 5E.  I'd be hard pressed to sell that to my client base
(small to mid size firms) even those who spend for the future.

--

Rob




Re: Yet another price per drop question
Robert R Kircher, Jr. wrote:

> Are you going with CAT 6 wire and CAT 5E jacks and patch panels?

> I looked at CAT 6 for my project and found it to be almost twice as
> expensive as CAT 5E.  I'd be hard pressed to sell that to my client
> base
> (small to mid size firms) even those who spend for the future.

I do not really believe in much (any?) savings in the CAT6 cable - CAT5E
connectivity as a transition path for those who can't swing for CAT6 right
away. Most costs are loaded (at least in my neck of the woods) in labor.
Cable pulling labor is almost the same. There are subtle time variations,
discussed here just recently in great detail, but generally it is the same
for rough estimation purposes. But you will have to consider doing
terminations twice, rolling the trucks and mobilizing the installer team
twice, disconnecting all the existing equipment, disrupting people's
workplaces for the time of re-terminations, re-connecting and subsequently
troubleshooting active equipment. Problems start snowballing on you and
eating into whatever savings you had made by not doing proper CAT6 in the
first place.

If the customer cannot afford CAT6 (these days it rather CAT6+, but it's a
theme for a whole different discussion), they will do just fine with CAT5E
for the next 3 years or more. After which time they can call you back and
redo the cabling if it becomes a bottleneck for their network.

--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide
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Re: Yet another price per drop question
>> Perkowski wrote:
>>
>>
>>> A LOT of people are putting Cat 6 in NYC, but, I cant sell one foot to
>>> a
>>> school district of that stuff, except for gigabit runs between close
>>> closets.
>>
>> Well, CAT6 sells to schools pretty well in my opinion. Besides, in most
>> recent school bids CAT6 is the one that gets specified. I would guess it's
>> not because CAT6 suddenly found its place in the cable plant (IMHO it's
>> still a redundant link between CAT5E and CAT6+ (E? A?)) but because people
>> feel safer when putting something relatively new into a new construction
>> project. This way they think they will not have to go back and uproot
>> everything in just a few years.
>>
>> Well, again, I see no shortage in school CAT6 project, so maybe you should
>> tweak something in your selling process?
>>
>> Good luck!
>
>Are you going with CAT 6 wire and CAT 5E jacks and patch panels?
>
>I looked at CAT 6 for my project and found it to be almost twice as
>expensive as CAT 5E.  I'd be hard pressed to sell that to my client base
>(small to mid size firms) even those who spend for the future.
>--
>Rob

Twice for the total of parts+labor ?  

--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.


Re: Yet another price per drop question

>>wrote
>>> Perkowski wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> A LOT of people are putting Cat 6 in NYC, but, I cant sell one foot to
>>>> a
>>>> school district of that stuff, except for gigabit runs between close
>>>> closets.
>>>
>>> Well, CAT6 sells to schools pretty well in my opinion. Besides, in most
>>> recent school bids CAT6 is the one that gets specified. I would guess
>>> it's
>>> not because CAT6 suddenly found its place in the cable plant (IMHO it's
>>> still a redundant link between CAT5E and CAT6+ (E? A?)) but because
>>> people
>>> feel safer when putting something relatively new into a new construction
>>> project. This way they think they will not have to go back and uproot
>>> everything in just a few years.
>>>
>>> Well, again, I see no shortage in school CAT6 project, so maybe you
>>> should
>>> tweak something in your selling process?
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>
>>Are you going with CAT 6 wire and CAT 5E jacks and patch panels?
>>
>>I looked at CAT 6 for my project and found it to be almost twice as
>>expensive as CAT 5E.  I'd be hard pressed to sell that to my client base
>>(small to mid size firms) even those who spend for the future.
>>--
>>Rob
>
> Twice for the total of parts+labor ?


No just parts.

As an example
http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=074208
vs.
http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=167486

Of course I know there are cheaper/better suppliers but this is what I could
find quickly on the internet.

--

Rob




Re: Yet another price per drop question
Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com) wrote:
> Perkowski wrote:
>
>
>
>>A LOT of people are putting Cat 6 in NYC, but, I cant sell one foot to
>>a
>>school district of that stuff, except for gigabit runs between close
>>closets.
>
>
> Well, CAT6 sells to schools pretty well in my opinion. Besides, in most
> recent school bids CAT6 is the one that gets specified.

I have tried.  All computer people at school districts I work with dont
even ask for it.  Heck, with today's shrinking budgets its a hard sell
in most districts except the rich ones.  To me they all seem content
with Cat 5e for now.


> I would guess it's
> not because CAT6 suddenly found its place in the cable plant (IMHO it's
> still a redundant link between CAT5E and CAT6+ (E? A?)) but because people
> feel safer when putting something relatively new into a new construction
> project.

Well, maybe in new constuction.  But, 99% of the schools Im in its still
Cat 5e.


This way they think they will not have to go back and uproot
> everything in just a few years.
>
> Well, again, I see no shortage in school CAT6 project, so maybe you should
> tweak something in your selling process?
>
> Good luck!

People dont even ask me about it.  I have seen 1 school here on Long
Island that has a large Cat 6 investment, other than this one most
schools are still using old Cat 5 and Cat 5e.



Re: Yet another price per drop question
> Of course not, but, I always explain this to my customers.
> For some strange reason, they think the 2nd cable is a freebie.
> It isnt though, I still have to pay the the cable and jack.

About $30 for 200' plenum, and $10 for jacks (both ends),
plates/etc.  A few minutes for terminating and a few more
for testing.  Not free, but not huge compared to the 0.5-1.0
hours it takes to fish & pull 200' (including helper time).

> I also do this, but, most important to me is the cable lengths.

Certainly.  More material & take longer to fish & pull.

> I charge more for runs beyond 200 feet, compared to runs
> shorter than 200 feet.  The price per drop price has become
> very competitive here in NY.

Perhaps you should give discounts for multiple cables to
one drop, or back-to-backs.  Price'em as 1-gang drops,
2 gang & 4-gang.

-- Robert



Re: Yet another price per drop question
2

CIAO!

Ed Nielsen
CENCOM
www.cencom94.com

Robert R Kircher, Jr. wrote:
> When you refer to x dollars per drop are you talking about a physical
> location or the actual number of terminated runs?  For example if a single
> location has both a data and a phone line is that one or two drops?
>


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