Nayas Admits Errors, Promises to Be Honest Going Forward, Switches to Verizon

I wonder if adding a similar line to the old heath kit business would help get the hobbiest back or is it too late?

fundamentalism, fundamentally wrong.

Don't get east of the left coast much do you...

fundamentalism, fundamentally wrong.

Sure I do. I went to Costcos in Brooklyn and near College Park MD, in February, and I've been to them in Atlanta, Minneapolis, and Fort Lauderdale as well.

Another infantile variation.

Both of which have a "large selection".

And both of which:

- Tend to have poor / unavailable customer service

- Have a tendency to drive local retailers out of business without replacing their unique value

- Have had significant or substantial labor problems or a history of exploiting employees

- Have a tendency to only contribute to local communities when forced to, and there is a high "sleaze factor". (HomeDepot tried to pawn off some pretty big lies to get a store into SF, for example)

I consistently prefer to do business with quality local retailers unless the conditions I mentioned in my previous post force me to do otherwise. I like the retail profit to go to a local organization that invests in the local community, and in return I generally get superior service as well.

Getting back to the office store / computer store comparison where we're talking strictly about national chains, I almost always getter quicker, more courteous service in a less aggravating environment when I go to Office Depot/Staples/ OfficeMax as compared to Frys/CompUSA/BestBuy, assuming all the stores carry the item I'm looking for. (BestBuy is a bit better than the other two, and MicroCenter is about the best "superstore" for service in my experience)

YMMV of course, and there are always store-to-store variations.

Walmart really doesn't have any products that need knowledgeable sales staff, but the paint and electronics departments seems to be the most educated comparatively speaking to the rest of the store). Home Depot and Lowes has each department specially trained. Ever see the pins on the HD vests?

No doubt. I can't see the local lumber store surviving. But then, the store only has a very few items that the local Lowes didn't have, Oh...forgot to check Tractor Supply. Besides, I'm past the leather and metal fantasy stage.

No argument there as far as Walmart goes.

That may very well be in some cases, but from what I've seen when the new kid on the block meets public opposition, they make concessions to meet the communities concerns - like adding more trees, sound barrier walls, improve street access to reduce traffic congestion - the you could say the "sleaze factor" work for the community instead of against it.

In my local Walmart, there's a sign that says how much they contribute to local organizations that could very well exceed what other merchants put back in.

Which is easy to do when the local merchant has for or five floor staff to handle the four or five customers in the store. That's an incredible amount of staffing overhead per sales volume/floor space.

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Actually I would argue that he has a clue on many things, but his overwhelming need to be "right" and "the expert, along with an extreme aversion to admitting error (or that someone has actually taught him something), continually forces him into a rhetorical corner. Thus if someone confronts him with incontrovertible contradictory facts, he has a tendency to desperately twist and selectively present facts to fit the pre-determined conclusion, lest he be faced with the nightmarish shame of admitting he was wrong in some way.

I'm still waiting for JN to disprove the mathematical formulas I posted in a recent thread where he tried to claim that the differences in effective geographical cell-site coverage between 800Mhz cellular and 1900Mhz cellular were essentially nonexistent.

He has no rebuttal to that, of course, because as you said pertaining to your experiences in a different newsgroup than ba.internet where the thread mentioned was limited to, he has a tendency to hide and go silent when his assertions are so thoroughly disproven without any hope of reviving them with the usual bluster and spin, rather than - *gasp* - actually admitting he may have erred or has limited knowledge on the subject.

The fact that he can be seen studiously "coming to the defense" of a particular cellular carrier, time-after-time- after-time, with virtually no balancing discussion coming from him at any time that might cast any but that particular carrier in a favorable light, makes the ruse all the more transparent and "John Navas'ish".

(FWIW, this pattern goes back 10+ years, before he newgrouped alt.cellular.cingular and way before Cingular even existed)

When the time comes, history has shown that he will at some point become disgruntled with his "vendor du jour", throw a bunch of bluster and recriminations around about the failure of this former "vendor du jour", and once he has made it clear that they have fallen-from-grace, he will with great fanfare find a new "prom queen", and the process starts anew.

Here is the chronology of how this process occurred in the case of internet providers over the last 12 or so years:

1) Ccnet 2) Netcom 3) Aimnet/Verio 4) TCI/ATT/Comcast 5) SBC 6) Sonic.net 6a) Cingular Media.net/EDGE

(Currently the honeymoon is over with Sonic.net, and he's begun his "sniping" stage. He still uses them for some things, but every chance he gets he ridicules them and makes a point to mention that he has started using other providers for certain services. Pretty soon another "prom queen" will be announced. One of the candidates might have been Cingular's HSDPA service, but since he can no longer find a way to get it cheap enough, it may have to wait.)

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

Both of which carry many of the most needed items. When I need something they don't have, then of course I go somewhere else.

YMMV. Although customer service can be spotty in Walmart, I usually get good customer service in Home Depot. Both are good on satisfaction guarantee and return policy.

What they actually do is a better job of satisfying the market. Any consequences on local retailers are a result of their effectiveness and customer choices. Those with truly "unique value" can not only survive, but thrive.

That depends on your point of view. Both have many employees that are happy with their jobs. Regardless, working there is a matter of choice.

My own take is that they are no worse in general than most other businesses. Many local businesses make no contribution at all to their local communities.

My practice is to use the retailer (brick and mortar or online) that is the best value proposition (including service) for any given purchase. That might be Walmart or Home Depot or Costco, or it might be a local retailer, like my favorite coffee place (Pacific Bay Coffee ). That helps the market to work effectively. The challenge for local retailers, just like local ISPs, is to offer a sufficient value proposition to justify their existence. Warm and nice isn't usually enough. My favorite coffee place has no problem competing with the likes of Starbucks and Peets. It notably isn't competing by matching prices.

Likewise Pacific Electronics in Dublin. Likewise NCAL Computer in Pleasanton . Purely local retailers with a sufficient value proposition to justify their existence. And Frys isn't a true national chain.

My experience in my area (East Bay, Tri-Valley) is that the national office supply chains generally have poorer customer service than the big computer/electronics chains (Best Buy, Circuit City, CompUSA).

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

Those that have a sufficient value proposition can not only survive but do well. Examples: Richert Lumber in Pleasanton , Southern Lumber in San Jose .

Inefficiency that's reflected in the price.

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

Not even remotely accurate, so I'm not going to bother responding, much less be so childish as to respond in kind. Have a nice day.

Please don't wander in areas you aren't familiar with.

At least you qualified that as an opinion. I qualified it as my experience with chamber of commerce offices.

Sounds like he's done his research.

Of course not.

You may now have the last word, I'll give it too you.

I think it's too late -- automation and competition have driven the labor content down to the point and the complexity up to a point that it's now much more expensive to offer something electronic as a kit than as a completed product. A better business model might be something like Sharper Image and/or Brookstone, with unique branded items.

Customer service in my local (Fremont) Home Depot is dreadful.

Home Depot also earned a highly dishonourable mention with the San Jose Merc ActionLine column. Their record with the BBB is less than stellar too. I think you may be rather lucky with your specific local store.

Fortunately, Fremont now has a Lowes which is far better, for most items I need.

Customer doesn't seem to mind, note 1 is driven by and drives 2. Full service gas stations are all but gone, customers aren't willing to pay for service. I dislike the big box stores for this reason, but I'm a minority. As they say: "Walmart, helping American's shop themselves out of a job."

Since 1981 and the Air Traffic Controls, this is what the majority of the voting public wants, look at the Congress and White House, the public has bought into the idea that workers are evil (particularly American workers)

Again customer doesn't care, we know this because he shops HD and not 'Dads True Value'

You are a minority today, the vast bulk of American consumers are not interested in helping their neighbor or community. Look at the success of Walmart as the classic example.

I think it may even be regional. I consistantly get better computer oriented service from CompUSA then BB and CC (no Frys in South East). This seems true in my hometown and in the two large metro areas near me. Not that the big Office stores are bad at least locally. I just give CompUSA the edge. Note this is of course purely based on my experience and in no way represents a scientific survey.

fundamentalism, fundamentally wrong.

This actually does tend to prove Philip's point, that I'm guessing went right over your head. That's OK, we all have flaws.

fundamentalism, fundamentally wrong.

"They" are misguided.

A classic example of what?

I know many people who are active contributors within their community. Those same people also shop at Walmart.

Most of them probably support some local businesses that have offered them good friendly service.

And that's the problem in a nutshell: pretty soon there won't be much in the way of "somewhere else" to go to when the national chains fail to provide the services/products you need.

In general "satisfaction guarantee" and "return policy" are the kinds of things that large faceless national chains emphasize when actual person-to-person customer service is lacking or nonexistent. I've watched this trend for over 25-30 years now. Personally I care less about a liberal return policy if it means that I end up with the wrong item, waste my time in the store or going to the store or having to return something when I could have answered my question over the phone or been directed to the proper item in the first place, etc etc etc. Unfortunately it's the "new way of the world" in the USA now.

Assuming facts not in evidence. This is like those who postulate that Microsoft must be good for us all because they start at the current situation and work backwards rather than having any sort of ability to visualize a world where we had other feasible choices available to us many years ago and then taking that alterered reality to look at what the "ecosystem" would presently look like if this were the way the industry developed.

I really get a kick out of your ability to completely blame the victim, and the large national chains in this case can't possibly take any blame for anything whatsoever, they are "automatically" doing a better job, simply because they exist. What planet are you on?

Empty fantasy which when placed against current facts is often simply not true.

Now that's an answer completely devoid of content if I ever saw one. Talk about damning with faint praise. FYI, both Home Depot and Walmart have had large well-known labor problems, and Walmart continues to be infamous around the world for its shoddy treatment of employees and low wages.

What needs to happen here is that one needs to define what "contribute to the local community" actually means. "DecaturTXCowboy" mentioned some sort of poster at Walmart stores that deigns to quantify "how much they contribute to the local community". You can bet your bottom dollar that the only reason such a sign even exists is because of all the flak that that organization takes over that issue. Any huge retailer is going to look "impressive" if you just take, for example, sales tax receipts, and add that nice big number as part of "contributing to the community", but in reality that's required by law anyway. Likewise they could crow about bringing "jobs" to a community, but if the presence of such a store results in a domino effect of dozens of other local businesses closing up, you can bet that all of the various entities affected by that is not going to be reflected in Walmart's "feel good community contribution meter" sign. Neither is the wage differential going to show up on that sign between the wage paid to the previous local workers (ie $17/hr) compared to the new Walmart workers. (ie $10/hr)

Lastly, there are a lot of more abstract or less easily quantified benefits that local businesses confer on a community that cannot be added/subtracted from a dollar figure posted on a sign in a Walmart.