Western Union's satellite loss [Telecom]

This is true.

Baltimore was one of the cities NCL took over and converted to buses. I believe there's a book, "Who made our streetcars go?" documenting this.

In 1974, with the country facing jam packed roads and an oil shortage, the mayors of both San Francisco and Los Angeles pointed out that NCL had taken over key streetcar routes in their cities (Key System in SF) and converted them to buses, contributing to the mess.

As mentioned, NCL converted streetcars to buses in Philadelphia.

Now, NCL was not the only reason streetcars lost favor, there were other reasons, too. Nor would I call it a "conspiracy", rather, it was a business decision by automotive makers to vertically integrate to sell more of their products.

None the less, the actions of NCL were not in the nation's long term interest. The LA and SF mayors testified in detail before Congress of the problems that resutled.

As to commuter trains, high taxes assessed on them while roads had no taxes certainly was a very significant factor. When commuter trains first got into difficulty, the NYT did a study of the issue and noted [the] very heavy burden; back then, the commuter lines serving New York City were paying about a billion dollars in property taxes (in today's dollars). That's quite a hefty sum, especially when the competition is paying zero. The NYT also found that local towns were not about to cede the railroads any tax relief.

***** Moderator's Note *****

The more I think about it, the less sure I am that this is a valid comparison. Railroads, as private corporations, are expected to pay taxes: public roads are paid for by the taxpayers, and while they don't generate any tax revenue while idle, the vehicles that use them pay exorbitant taxes: everything from levies on fuel to excises to "sales and use" taxes (which are 5% of "Blue Book" value in my state).

IMHO, pointing to a lack of taxes on roads, (which are, as public property, exempt) isn't an effective argument at a macroeconomic level. Railroads faded from prominence because they are too efficient, i.e., because selling, fixing, fueling, and taxing automobiles and trucks is both easier and more profitable than convincing the public to suffer the indignity of sitting next to someone who likes a different kind of newspaper than you do or wears different clothes.

Despite the barriers placed on them, some commuter rail systems continue to do well: with the economy down, suburban car owners are realizing that all the "little" costs of owning a car add up to a _lot_ more than the cost of a rail pass.

FWIW. YMMV (No pun intended).

Bill Horne Moderator

Reply to
hancock4
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Railroads pay taxes on their vehicles.

Roads and bridges were originally privately owned and were taxable. Indeed, a reason the govt took that function over was to save money for road users because they were non-taxable.

Let's note that a road requires a much bigger footprint than a railroad does to move the same amount of goods or people since rail is far more efficient. (Also, airports pay no taxes either being govt owned and supported).

For example, the giant Port Authority of NY & NJ built truck terminals. Being tax exempt (no property or income taxes, and bond earnings were not taxable) gave the P.A. a big cost advantage and private terminals were closed. But the railroads had to keep paying heavy taxes on their terminal facilities. That was not fair.

In addition, roads [consume] extensive public safety services--fire, police, rescue--all of which is paid by the general taxpayer, not the road user. Master road builder Robert Moses felt road users should pay for those expenses.

For sake of argument, let's say the govt decided to take over Western Union when it got into serious trouble in the late 1980s in order to keep its record message business going. At that point WU didn't have to pay taxes on anything anymore. Further, suppose the govt gave it a great deal on NASA services. That would lower its cost and enable it to offer private line services at a cheaper price. I suspect the other carriers would scream bloody murder. But the govt chose to build and support highways a century ago and has been increasing its support ever since.

Taxes were not the only reason private railroads were hurt, but they certainly were a contributing factor.

When the LIRR went broke circa 1950, reformers (including Robert Moses) tried to get tax exemptions for it to save it and keep it running. It was paying a fortune in taxes. But the towns refused. New highways and bridges (built by Moses) were completely exempt from taxes.

****** Moderator's Note *****

In Massachusetts, road users _do_ pay for emergency services: my wife was in an accident a couple of years ago, and the town fire department sent me a $500+ bill for the ambulance ride she took. It did me no good to complain about my taxes: their reply was that the taxes paid for the _capability_, but that my insurance carrier had to cover the _performance_.

Anyway, unless there's more to add, it's time to close this thread.

Reply to
hancock4

Interesting. And what designator is on the registration plates of RIPTA buses in RI? Jitney.

Reply to
T

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