Waiting for Verizon.. [telecom]

That is great, with all the noise I have been making with AT&T here in Riverside to get U-verse, I agreed to let them put it on a corner of my lot, it is city right of way, but I had to agree to it. I already had one explosion when an underground transformer that the city installed on the side of my house in 1977; it went up in 1985 and we then found out it had PCS's in it.

-- The only good spammer is a dead one!! Have you hunted one down today? (c) 2010 I Kill Spammers, Inc., A Rot in Hell. Co.

Measured DC current (12V) on my FIOS box is .48 Amp. It rises to .57 A when off-hook. The backup battery is 7.2 AH, and the installer told me it's supposed to give around 12 hours of backup. Of course, that's assuming the battery is kept reasonably current. Replacing it is a "user responsibility".

Unfortunately that was true for several places in NYC and other urban areas. Also, they needed to protect the late night operators coming in at midnight, still had quite a few in the 1970s. The trucks of repairmen and installers would get broken into and stuff stolen.

Those guards and vandalism added to the cost of telephone service, which was a shame since it was such a waste.

To this day many payphones in NYC have extra heavy cash vaults.

No, not at all.

For one thing, service conditions varied in different places. I suspect large biulding basement distribution panels were generally 'cleaner' in certain cities than in others due to the various issues outlined about the service crisis. A phone co that hired unskilled labor and then places them under time pressure will not get the same quality of work as a phone co that has good people and enough time to do the job right.

The old Bell System had numerous service quality indexes and these varied quite a bit from place to place.

Another issue is physical wear and tear on the cable plant. Certain environments were more conducive to insulation decay than others. For instance, the overloaded MDF jumper racks in NYC. A poorly maintained building with a filthy basement will have more of a chance of dirt, dust, mold, and bugs to get into key system relays and building wiring. A phone co under pressure might not maintain its cable plant as well as a healthy phone co.

Another reason is economic. Everything needs periodic maintenance. A particular item is often replaced when it is no longer economically viable to keep maintaining it, that is, when repairs would cost more than buying something new.

The phoneco _does_ replace distribution cable after so many years. I believe the cable on our block was replaced after about 30 years. The electric cables were replaced, too. I don't know how long copper in underground conduits last (actually, it's not the copper but the insulation).

Complicating the issue of inside wiring is the ownership and responsibility in large buildings. In the old days it was the phone company all the way to the telephone set. Today it's not so clear. The demarcation line for apartment buildings is not necessarily the same as a single family house, for one thing, there may not be any modern demarc box, just the old original distribution mounts.

Why is there an expectation that infrastructure that has its technical origins back in the early 20th century is automatically obsolete and in need of replacement?

What do we mean by "technical origins"? Do we mean specifically a 202 telephone set built in 1930? Or, do we mean a carbon based transmitter and classic speaker, such as a "G" handset and 2500 set?

Certainly a 202 set should be replaced as significantly superior components are available--the sound quality is much better. Also, Touch Tone is virtually necessary today.

However, there is no need to replace a working 30 year old 2500 set that uses a G handset used for POTS. That phone is ancient technology--functionally, the transmission is basically from 1938 and the tone pad from 1962. Does not matter. A new phone would not work significantly better, or even noticeably better. Indeed, the user may prefer the variable adjustable real ringer as opposed to the harsh modern tone ringer.

It's certainly not gonna be my money if it does what I want it to do.

I have a collection of phonograph records, audio casette tapes, and VHS video tapes. They are all technologically obsolete. For that reason alone, should I go out and spend $$$$ to get it all on CDs or whatever the latest format is?

Not really, no. They are designed for a quick jolt of huge current and then lots of quiet time. It's like using a sprinter for a marathon.

For recovery purposes, you use deep cycle batteries. *

A VRAD is an outside plant item that is used to operate the fiber part of AT&T's new broadband offering, which is called uverse. *

In Message-ID , Wes Leatherock asks:

Yes it does. As I'm sure you know, it was a subsidiary of Western Uni Empire City Subway Company (ECS) is a wholly owned subsidiary of Verizon that specializes in subsurface engineering and construction services. Since 1891, ECS has held a franchise from the City of New York to build and maintain a conduit and manhole infrastructure in Manhattan and the Bronx. ECS rents this space to telecommunications and cable television service providers

ECS also provides a broad array of services to facilitate the installation, maintenance and protection of underground cables in the greater metropolitan New York City area.

No, not unless you want things that no longer will be available in the other formats because the infrastructure for providing those formats has been deemed uneconomical and has to make way for the newer ones.

My point is that for all the newer technologies that *might* work on well kept legacy plant, should we have an expectation that all this old technology infrastructure will be kept going when newer technologies will emerge and suck up the available money?

One day the question will be asked as to why one sort of communication service based on one type of old technology should be kept going when alternatives based on different technologies exist - and costs will push the date closer and closer.

I have several sets of that age (mostly Trimline) in my house and certainly do not want to replace them. I have looked for what is available today and they are neither as technically satisfactory nor as sturdy nor as well engineered for human factors as the sets of that era. are. (We were looking to add a set but after looking at what "modern" sets are like I found an old set in a drawer and it works fine.) Wes Leatherock snipped-for-privacy@aol.com snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com

In Message-ID , Wes Leatherock asks:

Noting the "ECS" in the segment above reminds me that the manhole covers were cast with the letters "E C S C Ltd." Wes Leatherock snipped-for-privacy@aol.com snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com

Would it be a bit more accurate (though much more wordy) to say that a VRAD is a collection of optical and electronic equipment, typically housed in a refrigerator-sized enclosure, that detects the multichannel optical signals coming in on an optical fiber, splits the channels apart, and sends the appropriate signals out over copper to each of a designated set of nearby residences or other customers; and also does the reverse for signals coming back from the customers, combining them and sending them out as optical signals going back into the fiber?

[I'm no expert on this, but I believe that's what a VRAD does. Whether a given VRAD will detect and process signals coming in more than one fiber in a given fiber cable I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.]

"On 3/19/2010 10:06 AM, PV wrote: "> Telecom Digest Moderator wrote: ">> However, this brings up a good question: are car batteries suitable ">> for use in _any_ backup service? Despite their shortcomings, their ">> price/performance ratio might justify the compromises. ">

"> Not really, no. They are designed for a quick jolt of huge current and "> then lots of quiet time. It's like using a sprinter for a marathon. ">

"> For recovery purposes, you use deep cycle batteries. * " "***** Moderator's Note ***** " "I understand what you've written, but that's not the question I need "an answer to. Given the price/performance ratio of a car battery, are "there _ANY_ backup applications it's suited for? Think about it: I can "buy them on any streetcorner in the world, they have recharging "stations as close as the nearest working automobile, and they're as "rugged as any battery gets. " "What's the amp-hour capacity of a typical car battery? May I assume "that I can draw _that_ capacitiy for _that_ many hours from a new auto "battery? Can I draw 1/10 that capacity for 10 times more hours?

Cars batteries will sulfate quickly when used outside their design parameters such as a source of backup power. When that happens, the batteries are essentially belly-up though there are newer desulfating chargers that often can "kick" some "new" life into them for awhile.

The kind of charger shown at the right rear of this picture is the "old" type and it cannot desulfate:

The following charger is an example of the new computerized style and it can desulfate "dead" batteries:

I bought the (above) Vector charger at a Target IIRC, but they're also available at auto stores, RV stores, marine stores, etc.

I use the following charger for my Honda home generator to keep its starter battery charged:

and I bought it at a local Honda/Ducati motorcycle shop at the same time as the generator.

I have never been inside a CO but it's my understanding COs have large volumes set aside for batteries to power the local PSTN when commercial power is down due to storms, accidents, etc. Given the acknowledged expertise of the "real" AT&T and Western Electric in this regards, it seems to me that whatever battery type they chose for that application would be the same type ideal for UPS systems. My >>GUESS

+--------------- | PV wrote: | > > However, this brings up a good question: are car batteries suitable | > > for use in _any_ backup service? Despite their shortcomings, their | > > price/performance ratio might justify the compromises. | >

| > Not really, no. They are designed for a quick jolt of huge current and | > then lots of quiet time. It's like using a sprinter for a marathon. | >

| > For recovery purposes, you use deep cycle batteries. * .... | I understand what you've written, but that's not the question I need | an answer to. Given the price/performance ratio of a car battery, are | there _ANY_ backup applications it's suited for? Think about it: I can | buy them on any streetcorner in the world, they have recharging | stations as close as the nearest working automobile, and they're as | rugged as any battery gets. | | What's the amp-hour capacity of a typical car battery? May I assume | that I can draw _that_ capacitiy for _that_ many hours from a new auto | battery? Can I draw 1/10 that capacity for 10 times more hours?

+---------------

Bill, battery management is a complex issue. For an in-depth answer to your question, I refer you to the lead-acid sections of the excellent resource, especially the sections mentioned below. But the main disadvantage of "typical car batteries" (as opposed to SLA, VRLA, or gel-cell lead acid) is the risk of explosion when used indoors due to hydrogen venting when charging [especially when re-charging from a deep discharge]. Yes, proper ventilation can protect against this, but still.

Anyway, give the following stuff a read. If you really want to use lead-acid, it looks like golf-cart batteries [which, as noted by the previous posters, are built differently from car-starting batteries] would probably be your best cost/capacity tradeoff.

Can the lead-acid battery compete in modern times?

Modern Lead Battery Systems

Charging the lead-acid battery ... When configuring a battery as a buffer, make certain that the battery has the opportunity to fully charge between loads. ... Deep discharges should be avoided if possible. Assure that the float charge voltage is set correctly.

The secrets of battery runtime ... The internal resistance of Lead-acid batteries is very low. The battery responds well to short current bursts but has difficulty providing a high, sustained load. Over time, the internal resistance increases through sulfation and grid corrosion. ... One of the best batteries in terms of self-discharge is Lead-acid; it only self-discharges 5% per month. Unfortunately, this chemistry has the lowest energy density and is ill suited for portable applications. ...

Non-Correctable Battery Problems ... A lead-acid battery self-discharges at only 5% per month or 50% per year. Repeated deep cycling increases self-discharge. ... Permeation, or loss of electrolyte in valve regulated lead-acid batteries (VRLA) is a recurring problem. Overcharging and operating at high temperatures are the causes. Replenishing lost liquid by adding water offers limited success. Although some capacity may be regained, the performance becomes unreliable. ...

How to restore and prolong lead-acid batteries ... Simple Guidelines ...[short list of recommendations]...

Note: Wheelchair batteries don't last as long as golf cart batteries because of sulfation. The theory goes that a golf cart battery gets a full 14 hours charge whereas a wheelchair only gets 7 hours while the user sleeps.

What's the best battery for wheeled and stationary applications? ... Regular car batteries are sometimes used for cost reasons. There is, however, a danger of spillage if overturned. Neither are regular car batteries designed for deep cycling. ... What's the best battery for stationary applications? Until the mid 1970s, most stationary batteries were flooded lead-acid. The Valve Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA) allowed batteries to be installed in smaller confinements because the cells could be stacked and mounted in any position. Although VRLA are less durable than flooded lead-acid, simple mounting and lower cost make them the preferred battery system for small and medium sized installations. Most UPS systems repeater stations for cell phones use VRLA. Large installations, such as internet hubs, hospitals, banks and airports still use the flooded lead-acid. ...

Testing deep cycle lead acid batteries ... Lead acid batteries come in two basic architectures: deep cycle and starter types. The deep cycle battery is designed for maximum capacity and high cycle count. This is achieved by installing thick lead plates. Typical applications are golf carts, wheelchairs, people movers, scissor lifts and RVs. Starter batteries, in comparison, are made for maximum CCA (cold cranking amp). The battery maker obtains this by adding extra plates to get a large surface area for maximum conductivity. Capacity and deep cycling are less important for automotive because the battery is being recharged while driving. If continuously cycled, the thin lead plates of the starter battery would wear-down rather quickly. ...

-Rob

----- Rob Warnock

627 26th Avenue San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607

I recall several articles describing battery research and development in the old Bell Laboratories Record, during its last decade of publication. I realize that's not much of a pointer, but if there's an index of them maybe that provide some information. I do recall that they considered everything about a battery, even the case (which became round and translucent).

I'm no engineer, but I think someone above described it as the difference between a marathon runner and a sprinter. Both are athletes in good strong physical condition. But one focuses on a short burst of high speed while the other focuses on long distance. Or baseball hitters--some are good hitters to get on base while others are 'sluggers' to hit home runs.

It's like combustibles--some burn bright but burn out fast while others burn dim but last long.

Even the old carbon-zinc No. 6 dry cells had different mixtures for telephone service--they were marked and intended for "intermitent service". Their chemistry was such that they worked best for short duration uses, like a quick phone call; after that, the chemistry would slightly replenish itself.

A car battery certainly could be used for emergency power; it's just that it won't last as long (either its charge or the battery itself) or be as economical to use as a battery intended for emergency use.

I am curious how long a car battery's charge does last to supply power. On a warm day I left my parking lights on* and when I returned to the car about 6 hours later the car started fine. So what's the amp load of parking lights? (I believe the headlights consume much more power). Of course the time will depend on temperature and physical condition of the battery.

(*My current car automatically switches the headlights off when I turn off the engine if I forget to turn them off.)

Yes, a car battery will work fine as a backup power source. Once. A deep discharge will permanently damge the battery. You can recharge it, but its capacity is now permanently reduced. Do it again, and you further damage it and further reduce the capacity.

If it's a one-shot you're looking for and then turn in the battery for recycling, you can go for it. If you plan to ever use it again, it's throwing away money. Most places that sell batteries also offer deep-discharge versions.

If you want to use a car battery for occasional backup purposes, and will never dischage it very far, then you can probably get away with it.

Capacity is generally around 40-50 amp hours given a 20 hour discharge rate. If you discharge it at a slower rate, you effectively have more amp hours. Car batteries often have a "reserve capacity" rating. This is how long it can supply 25 amps.

Take a 50 AH battery. Discharge it at 2.5 amps and get 20 hours. Discharge it at .25 amps and get more than 200 hours. Discharge it at

5 amps and get less then 10 hours.

Repeat the above 20 times and be sure to wear frontal protection including a face mask (as would be used in a machine shop) and rubber gloves. :-)

Seriously, my and 1000s of thousands of others' experience attempting to use an auto battery for powering laptops and computerized scopes over the course of a night shows the folly of continuing to do so -- the battery(ies) deteriorate quickly and will need replacement quickly.

The ONLY (affordable and easily findable) battery that works for hours is the deep-cycle/-discharge type. You'll buy 10+ auto batteries to get the same duration and reliability of a single deep-cycle battery and you will have spent a small fortune. IIRC, the last deep-cycle batteries I purchased were only US$50 or so at a local Costco.

There are many "types" of car batteries and some of the newer-tech ones "might" provide up to 10 hours operation, but the lead-acid ones simply will not. What you want is a deep-cycle battery.

The "jumpstart" batteries here have Gel-cells rated from 17 to 19 Ah (Amp-hours). They would power a ~5 Amp load for about 2 to 3 hours per 19Ah/5A = 3.8h which should be derated ~50% as a rule of thumb per my experience with them.

Typical parking lights are rated 8-15 Watts, hence take an Ampere or so, plus or minus 30%, and a set of four will drain about 4 Amps. Over 6 hours, that'd be roughly 25 AH, which is "nothing" to a 300 AH-rated battery.

Right: a headlamp's low beam filament will consume about 7 A (or at least the one I have fed by a metered automotive battery charger, to illuminate my back yard at night, does); a high beam filament, more (and if your high beam filament is on in parallel with your low beam, you must *add* the two current draws together, effectively doubling it).

A couple of those, *along with* the parking lights, dash lights, and whatever else always comes on when headlights come on, will drain some roughly 20 A *or more* -- over 8 hours, that'd make 160 AH or more, or enough to put a perceptible dent in a 300 AH-rated battery.

Agreed. Cheers,

-- tlvp

-- Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP

Well yeah, but I was answering in one sentence. *

Exactly.

It depends. The battery bank is mostly buffer to provide clean power and bridge the generator, but it does have a few hours of standby all by itself.

Good guess, yep. Ask any CO eng>I'm sorry, but I'm lost. I just can't get my head around it: I've seen

My analogy of a sprinter vs. a marathon runner explains it, I think. A car battery can put out a LOT of current for a small amount of time, but doesn't have a lot of capacity to do it for very long, and is easily damaged if you work it too hard.

Batteries, especially lead acid, can be engineered to tailor them exactly for what they're used for. Car batteries are designed from the ground up to give the starter motor a big jolt, and not much else [*]. Deep cycle batteries can't deliver the same current, but what current they can produce they can do for a long time, and they don't get wrecked as easily when drained. *

[*] Of course, the few other things are important too, but they don't pull much current by comparison to cranking the engine.

What voltage? Amps alone doesn't tell you the whole story. For your application, a small generator (rentable at most big-box hardware stores) would probably be a better choice. Or if your radio runs on 12v directly, a marine battery.

Car alternators are designed to be as cheap as possible and still get their job done, not for efficiency. *