1984 All Over Again? [telecom]

Are you complaining about no rants? :-)

My guess is that our moderator Bill Horne is doing his job keeping the divisive stuff out of this newsgroup. He and I are two of the several moderators for rec.radio.amateur.moderated, and we keep a tight rein on that newsgroup.

Dick, AC7EL

***** Moderator's Note *****

I don't think of moderation as keeping a tight rein (sorry, Dick), but rather as cleaning the dashboard: the idea is to keep the passengers from getting manure on their clothes when it's not necessary, while still getting them where they want to go. ;-)

Bill Horne Temporary Moderator

Please put [Telecom] at the end of your subject line, or I may never see your post! Thanks!

We have a new address for email submissions: telecomdigestmoderator atsign telecom-digest.org. This is only for those who submit posts via email: if you use a newsreader or a web interface to contribute to the digest, you don't need to change anything.

And speaking of Telco issues, what is the situation in the US with people using VoIP and getting the dial-tone cut from their ADSL link?

Such things are becoming quite popular here in Australia, and the incumbent land-line telco here (Telstra) is starting to take a significant hit to their revenues.

Actually _doing_ it can be a bit of a challenge, but it *is* doable.

The LECs _do_ try to discourage it.

If you get DSL and POTS dial-tone from the same company, it's -really- difficult to drop *only* the dial-tone. The telco's entire system is set up to do the book-keeping (not just billing, but the physical-plant usage stuff as well) based on the land-line _telephone-number_ as the key field. Shared-line DSL is tied to the phone-number, which is tied to the physical pair (tail circuit). Try to drop the dial-tone (phone number), and *all* the services on that pair are cut, and the pair marked as 'free' for re-use elsewhere.

You get into 'games' like, order a _second_ DSL service, on a 'dry pair', rather than shared with a POTS number. There is a 'premium' for this kind of service, *if* the carrier offers it. Frequently this added cost increment is almost as high as the basic dial-tone. Thus, absent a compelling reason _not_to_, the current 'economic best sense' approach is to keep the POTS dial- tone, because you don't save much

-- if anything -- by dropping it. WHETHER OR NOT you actually _use_ it.

People are keeping the POTS dial-tone -- to minimize the cost of having the DSL on the 'shared' cost-basis -- *and* using VoIP (or CELLULAR!!) for almost all their 'billable' calling. They've 'effectively' switched to VOIP, but maintain the POTS line anyway, because it's cheaper to have it than not have it.

People cutting the copper line and going cell only in the US is a significant drain on telco revenue, with most of the major wireline companies reporting net line losses of 100K or more per quarter. That's against a huge installed base, but a far cry from the days when telcos were trying to find enough spare pairs for all the second and third lines people wanted a few years back. The telcos with solid wireless revenues are generally treading water, but companies like Qwest (with no in house cell operation) are in serious trouble.

Residential consumer provisioned VOIP (as compared with digital voice from a cable company, etc.) isn't large enough to be significant. The single largest company offering that service is Vonage, which reported only 2.6 million lines 4Q08. And that's essentially flat after a high churn rate. Even with all the other wannabes, there's probably less than 3M lines and you can bet at least half of those are riding over cable company coax.

The market in the US has essentially decided that voice will be served as a value added bundle with fiber or coax broadband. So, VOIP over dry pair DSL is there, but won't be a major player.

........

The regulator in Australia sets the price the incumbent copper line Telco can charge for line-only services, and this is quite competitive in comparison to the normal service with dial-tone (about 50% less rental). The VoIP providers here also have far lesser per-call costs, and you can even get your existing number ported to your VoIP service.

Because of these factors, "Naked DSL" services are a big growth area here

- especially for people who may move addresses and only need a new Internet connection to keep their existing VoIP number.

With the government now rolling out a national FTTH network the existing copper network may be basically obsolete in about 10 years.

at&t had to look over 500 pairs to find a good one to move my line too, all the others were either open or shorted. I could not believe how bad the outside plant was until I talked to a tech. The other day I noticed

10 heavy gang truck a;; over the street, it looks like they are going to replace the cable. The noise and crosstalk was so bad on my line it made my DSL useless for 2 weeks it took them to get a handle on it. I finally was forced to use the WiFi that they supply in the area.

I will always keep at least one line on Legacy Copper for emergency service reliability. One voice line on Copper all the way back to the Central Office so the alarm system dialer can always get to the Central Station receiver, and when you need to dial 911 there will most likely be working dialtone there.

Fiber and CATV Coax systems can NOT meet even a four-nines reliability, let alone five. Both services are dependent on utility power at the customer end point AND at several amplifiers and repeaters and concentrator cabinets along the way.

Backup batteries only last so long, and they dont have enough portable generators to cover them all. They would have to park a craft truck with a generator set at each point.

-->--

***** Moderator's Note *****

Copper isn't a panacea: it's trivial to disconnect a copper POTS line before entering a home, thus disabling any "dial in" burglar alarm system.

Bill Horne Temporary Moderator

Bruce L.Bergman wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

I once thought this way, but now the copper from my house only goes across the street to a SLIC, which seems to have less battery backup than the cable company's "digital voice" product.

The same holds for the phone company of today, unless you are across the street from the CO.

This is exactly what Fairpoint (formerly Verizon) has to do at the aforementioned SLIC and elsewhere during an extended outage.

There is no more POTS; there is no more "copper all the way back to the CO."

Having once maintained alarm systems, I could not claim reliability of a dial-up 30 years ago, and certainly not today. No supervision, no security.

PON = Passive Optical Networking

ONT = Optical Network Termination SFU-ONT = Single Family Unit ONT (i.e. a stand alone house) MDU-ONT = Multiple Dwelling Unit ONT (i.e. apartments, ...)

OLT = Optical Line Termination (the central office equipment)

Verizon FIOS is PON.

Passive means no powered equipment between the OLT and ONTs. PON splitters require no power. OLTs are almost always installed in CO's or CO like facilities with good backup power.

In other words, any backup power required for PON is at the customer premise or the CO. All that is in the field is glass. There are no amplifiers or repeaters in PON

The fiber links in PON are more reliable that copper systems that have powered units in the field; and many claim more reliable than a straight copper run. Considering that fiber is not subject to corrosions due to wet conditions, voltage transients due to bad grounds or surges due to lightning; I'm inclined to agree.

Here's a good primer on PON (just don't tell your teacher where you read it):

-Gary

Another reason to keep POTS: in an disaster (earthquake, widespread power failure, etc.), VOIP or cellular systems may stop working, but a wired POTS line almost always will work. You may not be able to call out of town, but at least you can call the local police or fire departments.

Agreed.

It's not so much that cellular systems stop working but they get overloaded much more rapidly than copper wires. When the media arrives on the scene of a disaster they keep redialing their office. As soon as they connect they keep the cell phone active even if it's for days. At the office end they just have it on a speaker phone.

The above aise the battery systems in cell towers, if they have any, may only last eight hours. Here in Telus land in western Canada they will last 24 hours. And the batteries are checked annually. According to some Telus employeers who are friends.

VOIP may work longer than any other method if there is even some capacity to get out of your area. I recall that during the San Francisco earthquake either the Internet or AOL and/or similar were the only thing working for a while.

That said I'd trust VOIP more if provided by the telco rather than the cableco as it seems the telco understands 24x7 better.

And if there is a disaster assume you won't be getting any food or water for ten days. FEMA states three days but one of my job titles is paranoid pessimist.

Tony

For what it's worth, over a long period of time, in our own experience, we've never had a telephone line failure. There were times when we had annoying heavy static, but the phones still worked. There were a few times when dial tone was slow. In contrast, we've had numerous power failures, ranging from local ones to massive multi- state ones.

A good deal, though obviously not all, of the telephone plant is underground, protecting it from storms and trees.

***** Moderator's Note *****

Complexity --> Brittleness --> Increased likelihood of failure

The more complex a system, the more likely it is to fail: a truism of design in telecommunications, computer science, and military defense.

Cell users choose portability, but give up survivability. VoIP users choose low cost, but endure latency, drop-outs, and hidden costs. POTS users served by copper pair get increased reliability, but endure all the shortcomings of service being tied to a single location, and higher prices for long-distance.

There's no perfect solution.

Bill Horne Temporary Moderator

Please put [Telecom] at the end of your subject line, or I may never see your post! Thanks!

We have a new address for email submissions: telecomdigestmoderator atsign telecom-digest.org. This is only for those who submit posts via email: if you use a newsreader or a web interface to contribute to the digest, you don't need to change anything.

Not any more. With the distribution of switching that started with the SLC-96, the landline telcos are rapidly working their way toward a much lower standard of reliability during disasters.

--scott