Opinions

Yes Jim Good Points, I will try to address them.

1. for many years electronic analogies have used water to illustrate the control of the electron. Voltage is the presure of the circuit and amps is likened to the water. Resistance is the size of the pipe. And these are effective illustrations but if a Tech really knows his or her panel voltage checks on a loop can identify whether looking for an open or a short and reduce time lost by removing the circuit.

1. My age, well I honestly don't feel young lately, at 41 I begin to feel the pains more than I use to. But I mounted my first MPI-25 at age 14 working for my dad's company. I spoke to many of you when I worked for tech support at moose years later. Most of my contemporaries in the business have always been older than I have been and I guess it will suprise me some day when that changes (just as it did you).

2. Class of Circuits A vs. B

Well I have often thought you guys are mostly Class A because I have enjoyed reading your input and feedback over the years, (Between feuds that is) although I admit the Wireless criticism guy is a pain. It does amaze me how many installing techs put the EOL -ITP.

Nope.

Since there's no change, the answers "nope", again.

Exactly. Test the resistance on each loop after you've first installed the system. That way if a "swinger" develops over time, you have a reference point from which to start troubleshooting.

Paul,

There is nothing wrong with the thurough circuit test that you are doing based on resistance. I think the best response was given by Marc or someone who mentioned that Radionics Tech supt asked about voltages on the loop.

If you call and say the panel shows a violated loop and say you have checked the circuit and its good. A voltage reading accross the circuit is a quick way to double check. (Without meaning to offend, the average tech doesn't know what the voltage is suppose to read so he can't guess or even lie,) now he gives the voltage. Since he was not holding the leads and the wire, his body resistance is not a factor.

Example. Take your favorite panel, with the EOL accross the zone, read the voltage, open the circuit by lifting one leg of the EOL now the voltage rises. Short the circuit and the Voltage falls to approx 0v. Armed with this you can also see when the voltage rises above the value shown with just the EOL then the loop resistance is above the value of the EOL.

The magic stops when the Panel is broke and No voltage comes out of the circuit terminals, Now you have to open at least one side of the circuit so that you can eliminate the load as the possible cause.

But the beauty still is that you identified the status of the loop without eliminating the circuit entirely from the control.

This does nothing to troubleshoot the suspect component, i.e. motion. glassbreak etc.

decide for yourselves, nice chatting with you guys

Nope,

Voltage is a function of Resistance, that is the point most miss. As R changes so does E, and A "swinger" will show by either method only when the intermittant condition occurs. Swingers are a study in themselves. If we are considering swingers on a loop then we might be talking about a group of switches in series. When a false occurs, which one is the culprit? Some use resistance and if the meter (like any of our tools is used correctly), it often identifies the failing component. I also like setting the loop response to fast and beating out the frames even using the chime mode.

All of these are good, its just that there are ways to check without pulling the loop or device being tested.

Thanks guys, interesting input.

Paul

I threw out my last roll last summer...good riddance.

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I always enjoyed foiling.

Don't you have any jobs that still have foil?

I used to do all my basement windows with foil and of course on the storefront windows. I've still go quite a few out there. If it's a simple repair, I do it with foil, rather than making the customer pay for all new sensors and having to do rewiring for audio etc. When the customer has what he thinks is a simple service call and then's told it's going to cost almost $200 to put in a glass break or two, it makes for a not happy client. If the foil is too beat up, well, then I gotta do what I gotta do. But if it's a simple break and otherwise in good condition, a repair gets me outta there fast and the client is protected and happy. Fortunately I'm from that generation that foiling was taught to us good. Most of my jobs are holding up, some more than

I've got one gas station in town with 6 over 6 light double hung windows on the second floor ( really old wooden building), that I did so many years ago, I forgot when. I don't know what possessed me, but I did overlaps and cube corners with solder connections ( solder was the only way to do it then/no foil blocks) I've never had to go back and service that foil after all these years. Probably now days, no one ever even looks as it or can or would appreciate the "artistry" that went into it ..... but every time I drive by, my eyes are automatically drawn to look to see if it's still there. Close to 35 years ago.

oh oh, Bobby knows how to use a voltmeter, how clever!

Unlike you, I also know the difference between a urinal and a cattle fence. I couldn't imagine anyone stupid enough to have done that, Mikey. But from what I've seen of your posting, I guess it's possible for you to be that dense. Somehow I suspect the last words you ever utter will be something like, "Hey, Bubba! Watch this!" :^)

It's not like there's signs or something on the fence, dude.

You might want to take note of those little insulators on the fence posts next time. Of course, that assumes you didn't *want* to do this in the first place.

Nope none left. Last one I did was probably 20 years ago.

Foil doesn't last long when glass temps reach 130 F ! I measured glass temps on friday...my front windows were 135, sidewalk was 150, blacktop was even more!

Crash Gord> I threw out my last roll last summer...good riddance.

Don't you have any jobs that still have foil?

I used to do all my basement windows with foil and of course on the storefront windows. I've still go quite a few out there. If it's a simple repair, I do it with foil, rather than making the customer pay for all new sensors and having to do rewiring for audio etc. When the customer has what he thinks is a simple service call and then's told it's going to cost almost $200 to put in a glass break or two, it makes for a not happy client. If the foil is too beat up, well, then I gotta do what I gotta do. But if it's a simple break and otherwise in good condition, a repair gets me outta there fast and the client is protected and happy. Fortunately I'm from that generation that foiling was taught to us good. Most of my jobs are holding up, some more than

I've got one gas station in town with 6 over 6 light double hung windows on the second floor ( really old wooden building), that I did so many years ago, I forgot when. I don't know what possessed me, but I did overlaps and cube corners with solder connections ( solder was the only way to do it then/no foil blocks) I've never had to go back and service that foil after all these years. Probably now days, no one ever even looks as it or can or would appreciate the "artistry" that went into it ..... but every time I drive by, my eyes are automatically drawn to look to see if it's still there. Close to 35 years ago.

Hmm, I didn't think heat would affect foil, but it never gets that hot here.

In my area, it's window washers, condensation and people who "didn't think" the scotch tape used to hold up the holiday decorations, would actually pull the foil off. Also, applying foil on plate glass during the cold winter requires some special procedures. Usually a hair dryer to heat the glass.

I guess the expansion of the tape/glass/glue/varnish may be different rates...who knows. I hated the no-close calls at night when some potential purp keyed the tape on his way out of the store.

Crash Gord> Nope none left. Last one I did was probably 20 years ago.

Hmm, I didn't think heat would affect foil, but it never gets that hot here.

In my area, it's window washers, condensation and people who "didn't think" the scotch tape used to hold up the holiday decorations, would actually pull the foil off. Also, applying foil on plate glass during the cold winter requires some special procedures. Usually a hair dryer to heat the glass.