James Bond Credit Card Lock Picks

And get charged with Felony poseccion of instruments of a Crime in some states

What a great gift, hoe picking the locks on the alarm panels

Most people wouldn't know how to use them anyway.

Some times the cheaper the lock like alarm panel locks the harder they are to pick.

You're right Crash; however, guys like this REALLY piss me off ! In my locksmithing trade, having public access to lockpicking tools would be exactly the same as if I came on the internet and announced to the world all the installer codes for all the companies in my area.

Security works on a "need to know" basis. Having a bunch of amateurs running around with picks does not work in anyone's favour. In our area, they wouldn't even sell them to me until I had been in the trade for six months, and then only after they got to know me. Now this f*cker is out there selling them to every Tom, Dick or Harry with a few bucks to spend !!

In the US, in some jurisdictions, having lock picking tools in your possession without being a qualified locksmith can land you in some serious hot water !!

RHC

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Just curious, if you feel that way, how do you justify unlocking alarm boards for total strangers? I mean, how do you know the circumstances? js

I have a medium size set of picks, I had to show all my security info to buy them. I have to admit I'm not very good, but it's a fun hobby. I DID manage to save a client major embassment once when he locked himself out of his house in his underwear, luckily he had his cordless phone and my decal on the front door...so he called me. When I got there he was hiding in his backyard...pretty funny. Took me abt 20 minutes to pick a Kwikset (like I said I'm not very good)...but I made his day!

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IMO, they are not quite the same situations ! In one case, you have someone selling restricted tools of the trade which could be used in a wholesale fashion to bypass with only a little practice most common locks sold for residential use. The merchant doesn't know who he is selling these too, and likely doesn't care. It's simply a means to an end - to make money, in spite of the fact that a lot of harm could potentially be done. Lock picks IMO are restricted tools which should remain that way ! A lot of state governments also agree, and have limited their ownership and use to people in the trade. Simply unlocking a piece of used alarm hardware that is commonly available, and that can just as easily be replaced for a few bucks can't be construed as doing public harm in the same way as selling a product who's unregulated use can. Locks are designed to be opened only by people with the correct key ! Lockpicks are used to get around that situation ! It doesn't take a genius to wonder why someone would want to do that who is not in the trade....

Unlocking an individual board that belongs to a client, who has approached me directly, doesn't guarantee in the same sort of wholesale way, that the board will be unlocked in all cases. I or the few others that do it can always refuse to do it if something is not quite right about the deal. In the vast majority of individual cases, it's pretty easy to tell what's going on though when a client buys a new home with a locked board, and the previous company simply refuses to unlock it because the client won't sign a long term contract, or when he's bought a new home with a brand new alarm, and the board is locked to prevent him from going elsewhere for his monitoring services !! And when I receive a large quantity of boards from an alarm company for unlocking, I am not receiving something where there is no control over their condition. The previous company that removed the board at some point made a valid judgment about this board, replaced it with another of their own, and has now simply decided to have it unlocked to save a few bucks. To some degree, I do have to trust their word on this, but since most are repeat customers that I have come to know, I don't have a problem with it..

Strictly speaking, as you say though, you don't always know the exact "circumstances" of any given situation. But you can exercise some control, and at some point, you make a judgment call as you do in all other aspects of business. However, in keeping with your point, there IS one company in Toronto that I will not do any unlocking business with, due to very credible rumours of shifty operating by way of stealing other companies accounts ! I wouldn't put it past this company to have stolen some of their boards. So, like any other businessman, I have the right to refuse to do business with them if I so choose for strictly business related reasons (and I do...)

But yeah, it isn't "black and white" in all cases; most, but not all !! But what ever is....

RHC

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Well, I'm sure that neither you nor I would put you in the same position as the users who would buy these lock picks over the internet.

Damn ! That must have been funny to see......what kind of service call did you charge him for. I bet if that had been his good looking wife out there in her underwear, it would have been a freebee.....:)))

I did the same once when a client's dog accidentally jumped up and locked him out of his home......and at 2:00 AM no less....

RHC

I'll bet he didn't even mind the $240.00 invoice for the service call!! ;-)

unregulated

Then there would be a distinction made based on the reason the board was locked, and whether or not that reason was legitimate in your judgment. Also, you are taking the word of the dealer or other end user requesting the unlocking service. How does your judgment of these circumstances differ from the judgment of the merchant selling picks? The intent however, is the same in the case of one who unlocks a board for a fee, as it is for a merchant selling lock picks for a profit. You can argue that unless the merchant is checking credentials, the sale is dubious.. The problem with unlocking boards is that even if you only do it for dealers, there is no way to be sure you are not assisting someone to subvert a legitimate contract by doing so.

I don't necessarily have trouble with someone who performs the unlocking service, but I do find your condemnation of the sale of lock picks, coupled with your rationalization for unlocking boards ironic. js

Lockpicks are not something that should be freely available for obvious reasons. Many state legislatures feel the same way. That issue really has nothing to do with locking boards. Those who sell restricted tools with no control may in fact be breaking the law (although with todays wide open internet, it's not likely they would ever face any kind of retribution, which is probably exactly why they are able to get away with it....)

Simply unlocking a board has nothing to do with the availability and sale of restricted tools ! Even if the unlocking of a board could in fact be contributing towards theft, it doesn't fall in the same league as distributing tools that could cause potential public harm. In most jurisdictions, if you innocently buy a product from someone who is selling it second hand, and you buy it truly believing it to not be stolen, and it subsequently turns out to be indeed stolen, you still own it. No third party can be held responsible for the acts of someone else if they purchased the goods innocently. I suspect the same legal logic would go for unlocking a stolen board as long as the party doing the unlocking didn't suspect it was stolen (although that only deals with the legal perspective, not the moral one....).

Sorry Jack, I can't explain it any better than that even if you see some irony in it.

RHC

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No need to "explain" it to me, I understand it just fine. js

That depends on whose lock it is. Medeco makes (used to make?) a small cabinet lock that's extremely difficult to pick. Locks on most alarm control panels can be opened with a pair of bent paper clips. Most Kwikset door locks will open with a rake and a tension bar in 2 seconds. I wouldn't try a Schlage and Medeco although an experienced locksmith should have no problem with a Schlage.

My sister-in-law locked herself out of her apartment in Brazil last year. Fortunately, only the simpler of the two locks on the door latches shut without a key. I opened it in about 2 minutes with a pair of bobby pins. The other lock has 4 sets of opposing tumblers. You have to align all four sets at once to move the cylinder. It's supposed to be as tough as a Medeco.

Some times the cheaper the lock like alarm panel locks the harder they are to pick.

RHC: Yes, this can be the case sometimes. However, when any simple disc cylinder lock fails to pick open, it is usually the fault to the locksmith failing to do one thing in advance.

RHC: Schlage is actually quite a precisely made lock compared to others such as Kwikset and Weiser. And since picking a lock is largely dependant upon the artist taking advantages of the manufacturing tolerances built in to the lock, the more precise the device, theoretically the harder it is to pick. On the downside, any dirt or accumulated crap affects them more than less precisely made locks. Personally, I don't like Schlage locks and have never sold them. Internally, they are far too complex and often quite difficult to get apart to rekey as well. The biggest problem is they can't be keyed to other than their own keyway, so unless all locks are the same make and keyway, there's no chance of rekeying them alike (as you can with Kwikset and Weiser).

RHC: I don't know of anyone who has ever picked a Medeco lock successfully. Back when I was locksmithing full time, I used to hear stories about those who said they could do it, but I never met anyone who actually was successful. Maybe someone has actually done it since then, but I seriously doubt it. Even if it was possible, it would take far too long to gain access that way compared to other, easier points of entry.

Medeco locks are also of much stonger construction than conventional non high security locks, with ball bearings built in to drill spots to stop a thief intent on destroying the lock to get it open. Well worth the money for commercial applications, but massive overkill for residential IMO. Expensive to rekey as well !! But again, ANY lock is only as good as the strike...usually the weakest point in the door locking system !!

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Not only are they virtually impossible to pick. They're also quite difficult to drill out. One model I saw at an ISC show had a free rotating disc that would simply spin if a drill was used to try to compromise the tumblers. They even supply hardened steel ball bearings to jam inside the heads of the allen screws to keep someone from disassembling the double cylinder ones from within. I wondered how you're supposed to service it if you use those. :^)

Far easier and faster to destroy the door frame.

The bearings are to prevent disassembly. The hardened discs do the rest. Nice piece of engineering.

From what I've seen on countless residential calls, the door frame is what goes first. One good, swift kick will take down most household entry doors. There's only about an inch of pine holding the strike plate in place on many of them. As you have often said in the newsgroup, electronic security isn't the whole story. You have to consider strengthening the doors and, in some neighborhoods, the windows too.

I like to put in the 3 inch screws thru the striker plate into the double wall stud.

Medeco cam locks used for alarm systems had a bad flaw which allowed them to be defeated i wrote medeco about it and they toughened the feature up but now a days you dont see to many alarm keylocks.

IMO, you are right on all counts vis a vis the door frames! Nor does it make a whole lot of sense to spend a lot of money to electronically warn of an intrusion after they are basically already in, if you haven't spent usually far less up front in advance to make it as difficult as possible to gain entry to start with !! Security is a "layered" approach, and ALL things should be in balance depending upon the environment and the particular risk scenario present...

It always astounds me after I go to the scene of a residential robbery, how easily in most cases it could have been prevented to start with by a few simple physical security improvements taken in advance. Then after the fact of course, the customer is always in a mad rush to install an alarm system (and this usually means he's more vulnerable to the first "shark" that shows up at the house, rather than spend the research time necessary to make a GOOD buying decision !!)

What's that old saying about putting the cart before the horse..!!

RHC

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