Here's a thread which gives figures for Z-Wave RF range derived from real world experience.
Why not cite the actual numbers instead of misrepresenting them? The url cited indicates that z-wave goes up to 30-40 feet. Given typical home and lot dimensions (and the undesirability of inadvertent house-to-house signaling) these distances seem to be purty near _optimum_. More range and power is not necessarily better. Greater distances are designed to be achieved by repeaters.
... Marc Marc_F_Hult
Or vice versa. :^)
Dave? Misrepresent z-wave info? No! Say it ain't so! He's had it in for damn near anything other than X-10 for ages. Sad, really.
Agreed. I'd much rather have the RF coverage stay inside the general footprint of my residence than have to deal with excessive interference should my neighbors decide to automate as well.
OTOH such a weak RF link leads to inconsistent operation. A link that used to work nicely might quit out of the blue one day just because someone hung a large white board. The professional ones are aluminum-backed.
Out here the houses that were insulated "extra good" also have insulation inside some interior walls. This is aluminum backed as well. For example, I can see the cell tower from here and the signal strength indicator on the cell phone pegs at the max when in the living room. Walk into the room next to the garage just a few steps away there is one wee flickering bar remaining and after a while ... "Not in Service Area".
There's a reason for that. DSave has been trying for years to market X10 compatible hardware. He's had almost no success to date though. The unfortunate part for the readers is that he's almost convincing in his constant attacks. Folks who don't realize his bias and are not aware of his dishonesty get snowed into investing in junk rather than some of the better options available.
Have you tried Z-Wave?
I'm not surew where "out here" might be but I can assure you after working on construction sites for over 24 years that aluminum foil backed insulation is uncommon and that any backing in interior walls is rare since it represents an unnecessary cost (something builders are loathe to accept).
It may be even worse than I thought. I had assumed the thread was discussing US units imported to the UK but AutomatedOutlet sells European versions as well. If these are European devices with much higher output power, 30-40 foot _OUTDOOR_ range is abysmal.
Rather, it's much better than what you claimed. The following is from the Z-Wave FAQ:
Q. Zigbee representatives claim a better range for ZigBee 2.4GHz than Z-Wave
A. This claim is untrue. The Z-Wave sub-1 GHz FSK radio has a superior communication range compared to 2.4 GHz DSSS radios. There are two main reasons for this. Firstly, the sensitivity of the Z-Wave radios is approximately 6 db better than a 15.4 DSSS radio. Secondly, the physical propagation range of a 868/915 MHz signal is approximately 2.5 times the equivalent 2.4GHz signal..
BTW, Mr Houston has claimed (weithout ever having actuially tested it) that Z-Wave suffers from severely limited range due to the max number of hops. What he fails to mention is that Z-Wave will seek the best routing and that with a macximum of 232 nodes, the system has a much better chance of "getting through" than simpler systems. Also, with a conservative distance of 30' between nodes and the controller located in a central position Z-Wave could handle a home that is 180' x 180'.
Zigbee can also use the same ISM band as Z-Wave so the deliberate misrepresentation would appear to be in the Z-Wave FAQ. Here's one of about a zillion links showing this.
Why anyone would buy anything from such a clueless idiot who tries to cover his ignorance with bluff, bluster, character assassination, distortion and outright lies is beyond me.
More fishy falsehoods.
Given that the thread I cited was about 30' reliable links _OUTDOORS_, 30' hops are hardly "conservative". 20' is conservative. 4 x 20 = 80 and that is best case with the nodes laid out in a linear manner. The real world will likely be less precise. An 80' cube is not likely to provide adequate coverage of the typical residence.
And, even with 30', the only way to get 180' is by sneaking in two extra hops. 4 x 30 = 120.
I have some of the new Leviton units on order and the HS controller as well. I intend to do range checks in several residences and will be glad to publish the results when I get a chance to do some structured testing. A key point for me will be the ability to reach outbuildings as well as around a large home. I should have them this month.
Has anyone else here with Z-wave devices done range checks?
Obviously, Mr Houston doesn't understand how to disagree without personal affrontery.
No, sir. The deliberate misrepresentation is yours. Those who've been here a long time are accustomed to that.
Allow me to assist you with the math here. Assumiong a 30-foot range, that's 4 x 30 feet in any direction. Taken to the design limit, if the controller is in the center of the structure, that means a signal could propogate 120 feet in every direction (a 120' radius ov coverage). If one were to build a round structure (a bit strange, admittedly, but not unheard of) with the controller in the middle one could cover 45,000 sf. In more conventional design, a 200' W by
100' L home could be covered with a single controller. That would be a 20,000 sf home.In reality performance would be limited by all of the things which normally trouble RF propogation. A more conservative expectaion might limit coverage to relatively small structures, perhaps half that size. I can accept a system that might not handle private residences over 10,000 sf in size.
The above blindly assumes that all 217 modules are placed outside the range. Of course, no installer would be sio foolish as to install 217 nodes over 120 feet from the controller (assuming one's home is big enough to even have such problems).
That might explain Mr. Houston's lack of success in business. It is sad, really. He has so much potential. Oh, well.
I intend to do range checks in several residences
structured testing. A key point for me will be the ability
Actual tests? That will be refreshing.
No. In particular, Mr. Houston has done no testing at all of Z-Wave.
The only ones I recall were by a dealer, Brian Dye (free air), a user of Charmed Quark referenced by Dean Roddey (free air) and the one in the UK that I referenced (free air). Zensys claims 100' in free air and that's consistent with other radio modules subject to the same FCC power limits. My experience is that translates to 20-25' indoors for reliable links. Other manufacturers using transceivers subject to the same FCC power limits say ~25'. Manufacturers and dealers tend to be more optimistic than users.
There was also a white paper by Echelon (competitor of Z-Wave, Insteon, et al) that, despite being from a competitor, used excellent methodology and was done by a couple of engineers with good reputations. I would take all those things into account when reading it.
The fact that Zensys feels it necessary to deliberately misrepresent things vis-a-vis ZigBee in their FAQ is just one more reason to be wary.
"Rob never installed home automation spun:
another thread you said you don't trust paid installers and that most are uneducated. now you say they are smart and would not make a mistake like that. what is it mr bAss. or do you just run your mouth to suit your spin of the moment without considering if todays lies fit with yesterdays lies?
very good question.
Having installed thousands of wireless transmitters of similar power in residences, I can state that Mr. Houston is wrong. Typical indoor range is from 50-70% of the rated free air range. Most of the transmitters we installed are security devices in the 315mHz to 900mHz range. Quality of these devices had improved dramatically over the past 30 years. Signal strength, however, has remained about the same -- 100mW max. Signal propogation in typical residencial construction is good enough that even the basic stuff we used decades ago could handle 4,000+ sf homes.
Those old systems didn't use repeating nodes. Each transmitter had to reach the receiver on its own. Z-Wave uses the 900MHz bands. (908.42MHz US / 868.42MHz Europe). I have 900mHz devices in use in my current
3,800 sf home and they reach almost everywhere without benefit of a receiver. These include telephones, wireless LAN, etc.Mr. Houston, in his zeal to denegrate all things not X10, would have you believe that all of the populat 900mHz wireless phones have a an operational limit of 20-25 feet. That is preposterous. Heh, speaking of "fishy". :^)
"Robert L Bass" a écrit dans le message de news: XJednaNod_NtVx3YnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com...
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Been reading about this tread since the beginning and read a few other post of yours and Mr Houston,and I wanted to see real time application of z-waze(witch was for me something I wanted to use at my home)
so here is my feedback to you and all other in this group about my on hand experience about z-wave
I got this kit from a web site
so I started to play with the remote and one single device(the lamp module),I first noticed that the range was about 30 feet in the front of the device itself but it was really less in the back of it10 to 15 feet at most( surely cause there is a metallic box grounded in the wall ...)then I installed all the lamp module,I could not make them work all the time (ok I did it on purpose,all the device where on different level and part of my home, BTW its a split level with attached garage with a size of 32*36 feet of 4 level)so one was in the basement in the front,one in the kitchen at earth level in the back and the other one was on the side on the bedroom level, top level)
next I used the 2 dimmer that were kind of in the middle of the house,and I got more consistent communication,but still some problem,what I do notice is that those 2 dimmer have a very poor range, less then 10 feet if all by themselves,being in a enclosed metallic box must not help
I didn't used PIR or any other sensor,but maybe placing some of those in good spot could create a good network,but from what I can see,if you use z-wave better be ready buying a lot of the stuff,cause you will need them to create a steady network path...
now if there is some single repeater that could be sparse in the house,maybe it would be ok..
And by the way Robert,I do have some insulation that have aluminium inside it,and some vapour barrier that is aluminium,and I have many interior walls that have vapour barrier like in the kitchen and in both bathroom and in the laundry room....
I've read the white paper, but have been so badly burned by Smarthome in the past, I am skeptical of anything on their letterhead. Then again, the methodology looked robust.
My home is nearly new, so there are no metal boxes. 2500 sqft rancher, more or less square. It won't be particularly challenging. I'll publish here what I find including methodology for "peer review". Range for me will mean less hops. I have no doubt Z-wave can cover the house. The soon to be built outbuilding will be more of a challenge.
Marketers...they all take the most advantageous case and cite it as the general/default. They can't help themselves, its genetic and its not limited to Zensys.
Thanks for the end user feedback. It's about what I expected and for the exact reasons I've previously noted.
Adding density with more modules will not help. 4 hops is the end of-the-earth to Z-Wave so you would need another network to extend things.
I don't know whether the same master controller can operate with multiple networks but I see no way modules in different networks beyond 4 hops relative to each other can communicate.
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