Experience with X10Pro versus old X10?

Hello Folks,

Slowly I am getting sick of aligning X10 modules only to have it or another one fail again next month. What if I threw some X10Pro modules into the mix, in the more difficult locations? Are they really so much better?

Google searches yielded contradictory results. Some links mentioned that a few Pro appliance modules aren't much different inside, others say they all have AGC and more sensitivity. There isn't much info on mixed use (Pro and non-Pro modules).

X10 runs a special with two app modules and two lamp modules right now. Tempting, but I don't want to try this stuff only to discover it's no good either. One issue with the old style modules is the "filter" circuit which, when I measured it, turned out to be more of a barn door than a filter so fish out the 120kHz signal.

So, those of you who have used X10Pro, do you think it's worth it?

Reply to
Joerg
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Reply to
BruceR

Hello Bruce,

Signal amplitude is often not the real issue, I measured over 500mV at the outlet in question. But the filter circuit in those old X10 modules is the pits. Whenever there is a noise generator (vacuum cleaner motor, printer power supplies etc.) the modules don't react.

So, I hooked one up on the lab bench and tuned through the "filter" with a generator. Basically injecting a variable frequency into the line and then tapping it off with a FET probe after the 33pF capacitor in the modules. At 150kHz it was barely down. That is one poor resonant circuit. The minute you plug in a noisy printer supply the hash of that switcher drowns out the X10 signal. When I use my comms receiver I can clearly hear it with plenty of margin but the modules can't pick it out because of that lousy filter in there.

I haven't yet found a schematic for the pro series, only for the old modules. But there was a generic interface pro schematic and that did not look encouraging WRT the receive filter. But it looked like a really old schematic and things could have changed.

Reply to
Joerg

Reply to
BruceR

Hello Bruce,

Yes, I made myself some and that fixed, for example, the problem that none of the modules at the south end of the house would work after I bought a Dell inkjet. I wonder how that thing ever made it through EMC cert. But with a vacuum cleaner or a margarita mixer that's not easy. You never know where these are going to be plugged in.

Well, my tolerance level for sloppy electronics design is quite low. They could have done a better job without increased cost for that filter. Some day (when I have a lot of time) I'll design a little preamp that fits over the IC and provides some real filtering. Reducing the 6dB bandwidth from tens of kHz to just a few kHz makes a world of a difference.

It also depends on what you yelled. Maybe she conveniently could not understand :-)))

Reply to
Joerg

Vacuums tend to be noise generators (though I don't know what the spectrum is). The other devices will sink the signal (attenuate).

IMO the problem is the lack of understanding of the problem not the product. Don't worry most people think it's noise on the line when most times (but not always) its signal loss. The problem is that the device is acting as a black hole (signals go into the device and don't come out). A filter will make the device look like a high impedance device to X10 frequencies (harder for the X10 signal to enter) and less signal loss will occur. It's a low impedence device to the AC (50/60 Hz).

And your using x10 ... one has to wonder. ;-)

Reply to
Neil Cherry

Hello Neil,

It's pretty wide, goes up to several hundred kHz with gusto :-(

The first vacuum cleaner I repaired as a kid had at least an elementary EMI filter in there, common mode choke and X-cap. The "new and improved" vacuums often show nada.

That's why I check the signal levels with a scope or an RF millivolt meter. They are usually ok. But you are right, most lay people wouldn't have a clue about it. That's why I believe that X10 at it's present performance level will never really take off. People would bring the stuff back to the stores, saying "It ain't working right".

Yeah, got a point there. But when I bought it years ago there was nothing else around at reasonable price levels. AFAICT there still isn't. I have read similar "works ... then doesn't work" stories about Insteon.

Reply to
Joerg

Reply to
BruceR

Hello Bruce,

I will definitely stay tuned. Sometimes I think about doing home automation installation once I retire but only if there was a system that is reliable enough so I can guarantee my work. And that ain't X10, at least not yet.

When I have a break in consulting work I might try out something with an MSP430, to see if a really good 120kHz receiver can be designed around it, matched filter for the protocol and all that. Maybe starting with a relay module that can switch CF lamps.

Reply to
Joerg

That would be interesting. With the 4 new technologies emerging SOMEthing's bound to come from it.

Reply to
BruceR

...

The ability to switch CF lamps is dependent on the lamp brand rather than the module. The Greenlite MINI 18 watt (75 watt light output) works OK with an unmodified Appliance Module. The X10 Appliance Module is a relay module.

Some compact fluorescent lamps put a noise spike on the line when power is removed causing an Appliance Module to switch on. The Lights of America brand is known to do this.

BTW, I've been using X10 modules since dark brown modules were available as the BSR brand.

Reply to
Jack Ak

I still have and use some of those as well as the original "maxi" controllers with the ultrasonic remotes.

Reply to
BruceR

Hello Jack,

If it's the "switch wiggle" turn-on feature or whatever that's called this could be fixed. But I was more concerned about their behavior on dimmer modules. Erratic behavior of the CFL upon dimming would be ok as long as neither the lamp nor the module is in danger of being fried.

I started much later, about 5 years ago. Then when I opened a module I was not very enthused :-(

Reply to
Joerg

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