How to clean up mains power?

So where is the double conversion UPS selling for $85? The app note is simply a summary of names for each type of UPS. It says nothing about a double conversion UPS costing only $85. And it forgets to mention other paths of noise and interference that even completely bypass the UPS. And it does not discuss functions that all electronics contain so that every very dirty electricity from $85 UPSes is completely irrelevant.

What must that router do? Its power supply must be so robust that even an $85 UPS in battery backup mode outputing dirt - 200 volt square waves and a spike of less than 270 volts - is completely irrelevant to the router. Why did an APC app note forget to mention those numbers; forget to mention what electronics power supplies must make irrelevant?

Simpler solutions first identify a problem rather than throwing a $500 UPS to fix what may even be, instead, a defective $50 router. Nothing else crashes and locks? Somehow that also is not relevant? Somehow we know it must be an AC electric problem? A conclusion based in speculation. Somehow an $85 UPS does what a $500 UPS does? Where does the APC app note say that? Why does it not say so much that is relevant to this router problem?

Reply to
w_tom
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Well, USENET normally frowns on any sort of commercial postings, but since you asked, you might try:

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but I make no promises. The stepped ouput sine-approx would appear to be your "double-conversion". You may have different preferred vendors.

This applies when diagnostics are easy and cheap. As they might be for you or me. The undersized neutral is easy to check with a DVOM: just measure AC from neutral to ground. Anything more than a volt or two means trouble. Much easier than disturbing connections (which usually makes problems disappear).

However, for someone less experienced, part swapping (or sequential reboots as I suggested) may be more cost-effective than hiring rather pricey electricians. The OP is at least on the right track by asking for help. I see my responsibility is to tailor my advice. Not always repond with what I'd do, or some sort of "ideal" solution.

-- Robert

Reply to
Robert Redelmeier

Anyone that runs a business server without putting it on UPS is not doing his employer any favors. Once you have a UPS, putting the switch and DSL router on the UPS is a no-brainer.

Any name-brand UPS will have genuine surge protection. A power strip will have, at most, MOV chips that handle spikes and little else.

Reply to
Al Dykes

Cite manufacuture specs that claim that protection. You cannot. Entire protection circuit in a plug-in UPS is the same circuit inside power strip protectors. But again, where do they list each type of surge and numbers that define that protection? They do not which is why you do not cite spec numbers.

More embarrassing, a UPS protector circuit is often grossly undersized even compared to power strips. That too will be obvious once those manufacturer spec numbers are provided. So where is this superior protection?

Meanwhile, any problem that might be causing the OPs router lock up would also be completely ignored by MOVs. Review numbers that are even printed on the box. Is this post sharp? Yes. You made claims that even manufacturer numbers do not say. Why make claims without first learning the technology?

UPS is to protect data from blackouts and brownouts. Once saved to disk, then data needs no such protection. How robust is protection inside computers? So robust that some of the dirtiest electricity - from a UPS in battery backup mode - still does not harm a computer. What is a source of some 'dirtiest' electricity? Many who did not first learn the numbers will automatically *assume* a UPS means 'cleaner' electricity. What is a source of dirtiest electricity? Did you read those specs? That is what a good business manager does - learn the facts before making a recommendation.

Meanwhile, MOVs (the protection circuit inside a plug-in UPS) will do nothing for the OP's router problem.

Reply to
w_tom

All three numbers on each wall receptacle (neutral to ground, neutral to hot, ground to hot) also report informative facts. Many will not obtain those numbers because the numbers mean nothing to them. They forget. Numbers are major facts and create useful replies from the other side of usenet.

Provided were numerous simple and inexpensive diagnostics. For example a 50 foot three wire extension cord test. An icon on the desktop that runs a script to collect ping and other useful numbers. The $10 line filter. But a $500 UPS only to perform diagnostic testing? A $500 UPS does not eliminate all possible electrical problems - as was assumed. So if the problem still exists, does that prove it is not from AC mains? No. Circuits still exist to carry AC electric anomalies completely around that UPS.

A UPS that outputs a sine wave does not define a double conversion UPS. That model (if I have properly recognized it) is simply a standby supply with a cleaner output. It still connects router directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode; does no electricity 'cleaning'. That UPS also would not provide useful information on the OP's router lockup.

A better test. Buy a cheapest UPS. Run router from that UPS in battery backup mode. Does that 'dirty' electricity cause router lockup? If not, then is router lockup due to AC electricity? Another diagnostic that is so much less expensive.

Reply to
w_tom

A real surge protection circuit has iron and copper and multiple metal oxide varistors (MOV). Weight counts, and the parts cost money.

Here's an illustration of a "better" powerstrip with small inductors, caps, and MOV chips.

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Here is a much better surge protector that weighs about 3 pounds. The heavy part is iron-core inductors.

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There is also "whole house" protection that an electrician can install in the main panel.
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IMO, anyone that doesn't put the server and core comm gear on a good UPS is an idiot.

What we do at the desktops depends.

In large buildings where all the utility wire is below-ground, it might be nothing. In surburbia with above-ground power, I'd put a whole-house protector in the panel and a "better" powerstrip under each PC.

Reply to
Al Dykes

A breaker box 'whole house' protector

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has an earthing wire. Therefore it has an earth ground to shunt (connect, divert, clamp) surges. Nobody says that protector stops, blocks, or absorbs surges. But your post implies that myth. How does a one inch part inside a protector stop surges that could not be stopped by three miles of sky? No protector stops or absorbs destructive surges. Otherwise even galvanic isolation inside all appliances would make all surges irrelevant.

A surge that overwhelms the many appliance protection circuits (galvanic isolation is only one and is also installed for human safety) cannot be stopped and cannot be absorbed. Destructive surge seeks earth ground. Either it is earthed via a wire (cable TV, satellite dish) or is earthed via a protector (AC electric, telephone). The smarthome.com protector with a dedicated earthing connection does earthing.

What doe MOVs do? Well since we cannot make a wire connection to earth, then MOVs make that wire connection only during surges. How good is that connection? Increased joules is same as increased wire gauge. Joules do not define protection. Joules is the ballpark number for potector life epectancy.

Why do some protectors fail during a surge - as the indicator light reports? Those protectors are grossly undersized. Grossly undersizing gets the naive to recommend more ineffective protectors. The effective 'whole house' protector is sufficiently sized (has enough joules) as to earth direct lightning strikes. A human never even knows a surge existed when using minimally sufficient protectors. Sufficiently sized does not promote protectors among the naive. But that is what the effective protector does - conduct to earth and remain functional.

Makes no difference whether incoming wire is overhead or underground. Every wire in every cable that enters the building must connect to same earthing electrode - either directly or via a protector. This figure from an industry professional demonstrates same principles for two structures. Each structure has its own single point earth ground. Underground wire to the building also carries surges:

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Another industry professional also demonstrates why underground wires entering a building without earthing can cause damage:
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Lightning strikes somewhere across the street close to the below

MOVs are simply one type of connecting device to earth ground. Others include 3mill carbons, avalanche diodes, gas discharge tubes, etc. In each case, the protector is only a connecting device - shunts (clamps, connects, diverts, conducts) a surge to what the surge wants

- earth ground.

Never assume a protector is protection. That is science based in word association. A 'protector' is a connecting device to protection. 'Protection' (via a protector or just using a wire) is earth ground.

Meanwhile, plug-in protector does not even have an earthing connection. Therefore its manufacturer avoids discussing earthing. Primary objective of plug-in protectors - profits. No wonder Monster Cable sells a $100+ protector that is same as the $10 protector in the grocery store.

Reply to
w_tom

Keep on believing that crock. A UPS is way better than a power strip.

Again that is not even close to being true. I have seen people try to place to many devices for a given UPS, but that is not what you are saying above

That can be one function, another more important function for other people is to keep the equipment running during blackouts and brownouts.

Unless you have a very cheap UPS, most power from a UPS during battery operation is quite clean.

Reply to
Dana

If true, then Dana would cite manufacturer spec sheets. He would post numbers that show how a UPS is better than a power strip. He does not and he cannot. So he attacks - 'kill the messenger'. Meanwhile, smarter consumers can view those numbers. Let's review an APC Back-UPS 300 spec sheet:

That's it. Nothing more. Where is all this protection? It does not even cite the various electrical anomolies and numbers for that protection. It does not even claim to protect - only lists 300 joules of MOVs? The entire protection system is 300 joules of MOVs an no claims that those MOVs do anything? Even grocery store power strip protectors have more joules.

Why did Dana somehow know a UPS provides better protection? He knows because he feels. The color glossy promotion sheet made some ambiguous claim about protection. That is often the only proof of surge protection - some ambiguous statement without numbers.

Numbers demonstrate grossly undersized protection inside an APC UPS. IOW only enough joules to claim some surge protection. That is sufficient for Dana to make emphatic claims - to know like an expert.

Numbers say that surge protection is near zero. Did they lie? Of course not. It was not zero protection. It was near zero (ineffective) protection. But sufficient for Dana to claim protection better than power strips. He could not bother to first read the numbers?

Meanwhile, a typical UPS connects an appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. UPS battery backup output may be extremely 'dirty'. Does 'dirtiest' electricity from a cheap UPS cause the router to lock up? A diagnostic test.

Reply to
w_tom

The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:

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"How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the US). And also:
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"NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology in 2001

The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses. Both are aimed at home use, but contain useful information for all locations. They are also aimed at surges, but contain some information on voltage loss.

I wouldn?t bet on the inductor in a plug-in suppressor being effective. But there are devices, like ferroresonant transformers that the IEEE Emerald book says are effective at stopping surges.

In w_?s mind, plug-in suppressors have miniscule ratings, service panel suppressors have mega ratings. But plug-in suppressors are readily available with very high ratings for relatively low cost. It is probably harder to find UPSs with very high surge ratings. Any surge suppressor in the US should be listed under UL 1449.

w_ has a fetish about tower antennas.

?Single point ground? is of major importance - entrance protectors for phone, cable, ... connect with a *short* wire to the earth electrode conductor at the power panel. With a large surge, the building ?ground? will always rise above `absolute' ground. The goal is for the power and phone 'grounds' to rise together. Results of not having a single point ground are illustrated in the IEEE guide pdf page 40.

Francois Martzloff, the NIST guru on surges, has written "the impedance of the grounding system to `true earth' is far less important than the integrity of the bonding of the various parts of the grounding system."

The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing (or stopping or absorbing) . The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere. (Read the guide starting pdf page 40). UPSs may or may not have the same surge suppression.

Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires need to go through the suppressor. External connections, like phone, also need to go through the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor prevents damaging voltages between power and signal wires (including induced from nearby strikes). These multiport suppressors are described in both guides.

According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment most frequently damaged by lightning is computers with a modem connection TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV connections). All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires.

-- bud--

Reply to
bud--

It is true. You are sounding like you have no idea of what you are talking about.

Reply to
Dana

I'm afraid it is you who does not know what you are talking about.

Your claim is true, if and only if, you are talking about a double conversion UPS. The normal line interactive backup UPS (the type you were referring to) has no more surge protection in it than one of those cheap power boards.

Reply to
Ross Herbert

Any device from a reputable brand that has iron/copper inductors, MOVs and capacitors will absorb surges. The heavier, the better to absorb surges.

Reply to
Al Dykes

You are being a bit too "general" in your comments. This particular thread is talking about cleaning up ac power "using a UPS". Therefore, talking about "Any device from a reputable brand that has iron/copper inductors, MOVs and capacitors" does not adequately qualify as being a UPS.

Reply to
Ross Herbert

pardon while I butt in here. It is certainly true that *some* UPS units offer superior performance. However, those tend to be very costly.

for the most part, if you buy cheap, thats what you get (ineffective protection and short battery life to boot!).

I am not sure I trust those power strips either. I have had 2 expensive pieces of equipment fry while plugged into those (cost a bunch of cash to repair/replace).

Someone else pointed out (and I agree with this assessment) that perhaps a combination of technologies is needed for comprehensive protection/prevention.

to that end, the mains breaker can be protected, each circuit can have its own surge and Over-Voltage Protection and then there are UPS units for the computers (I have 12 running here atm). This is a scenario called "defense in depth" and it works very well.

anyway, all this flame throwing and "attack the messenger" doesn't help matters any. only cold, hard facts will prevail.

DE N7ZZT Eric Oyen Phoenix, Ariz>

Reply to
N7ZZT - Eric Oyen

now here is someone who has done some valid research (thank you!).

Some of us in the Ham radio corps (like me) tend to "over do it" on grounding (for fairly obvious reasons). so far, that over engineering on my part has saved a lot more than would have ordinarily been the case. still, I should referr everyone back to my "defense in depth" proposal.

Again, thank you for the timely (and useful) info Bud--.

DE N7ZZT Eric Oyen

bud-- wrote:

Reply to
N7ZZT - Eric Oyen

Hogwash, of course the UPS I am talking about is part of a power system. Hence you are the one who is wrong. Using a power strip alone, will barely protect equipment from line surges. Using a UPS will protect from line surges as well as more importantly keep your equipment running during a line outage. No power strip will provide power during a line outage.

Reply to
Dana

It might just be me, but does it sound like these two are arguing the same point...?

FBt

Reply to
Esther & Fester Bestertester

No, the "hogwash" fellow doesn't understand that the UPS units that cost under $200 are basically a surge strip followed by a solid state switch that switches to battery power when the source gets too bad. And that many "good" surge strips are better at surge protection than what is built into low end UPS units.

His comment that a UPS is better than a power strip is true only if the UPS is designed with better surge protection than the power strip and that you can about voltage outages. As a blanket statement it doesn't hold water.

And since (as I think Tom pointed out) the joule rating is a measure of how much surge energy a surge protection device can absorb before it wears out, you have to think about how much surge protection that 3 year old UPS is really providing.

Measuring the surge protection remaining is expensive and really not worth it. I tell folks to buy 2000 joule or higher units and treat them as power strips after 3 years, less if you know of any nearby strikes. Actually if you have a nearby strike, just assume it's a power strip and replace it. I'm in an area with regular thunder storms. Not like Kansas but enough. If I lived in Kansas I'd likely switch to a 1 or 2 year cycle.

David

Reply to
DLR

I am not talking about UPS's that cost under 500. The UPS's I am talking about are not typically used at home, or in very small companies.

are basically a surge strip followed by a solid state switch that switches to battery power when the source gets too bad. And that many "good" surge strips are better at surge protection than what is built into low end UPS units.

And again, even for home use, a power strip does not provide power when there is an outage, for you to think otherwise is silly.

Reply to
Dana

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