Power + DSL signal in same 700ft cable length

I have (perhaps?) a unique situation. I'm trying to get broadband internet access to my home in the Rocky Mountains. I plan to lay wire (2TPR 22AWG Solid Telephone Drop Wire) from a Qwest pedestal near enough to the CO to get DSL, to a peak nearly 700 feet away. At that peak, I plan to terminate the wire with a DSL modem, attached to a wi-fi router, attached to a parabolic antenna (which is grounded at < 4 ohms). From the antenna, I'll beam the 802.11b signal two miles to a second antenna on my home. I've got the wi-fi part figured out, but am struggling with that 700 ft DSL wire run.

A Qwest splicer guy told me the wire type/gauge I'd need. He also told me that I'd be able to power the modem out on the peak using the same wire, and even using the same conductor pair! I know that phone lines are similarly powered, but with less voltage. Meanwhile, I've read all of these horror stories about power on parallel lines degrading phone signals.

So I have 2 questions:

  1. Can I use the same wire to carry low-voltage power out to the modem? (probably 12v or 48v -- still need to do the loss calculations). Can it be on the same conductor pair, or a second pair within the same wire? What can I do to ensure no signal degradation?

  1. What kind of equipment goes on each end of the cable to force power and a signal through the same wire? And, at the peak, can that equipment power both the router and the modem? (I still need to make a final selection of actual devices, based on power consumption and whatever I learn here)

Thanks in advance.

Reply to
getwilde
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Money no issue?

Option 1) Why don't you have a WiFi router with a directional antenna at the tower powered whatever way will work. On the peak put a repeater also with a directional antenna. Power the repeater using a solar panel and a

12V gel battery.

You can get very long distances if you don't mind paying for very good antennas. The range extender will not draw that much power from the battery. You should be able to go a long time without the need of the solar panel working at 100%. To find out, simply hook the router to a UPS and see how long it runs before the UPS dies.

Option 2) If you have 120V at the tower, run a power cable up to the peak. Get a couple of Ethernet over Powerline adapters. Run EoP to the peak with a WiFi router and directional antenna up there. Of course the router would be powered from the 120V running over the cable.

These ideas may or may not work. Just trying to think outside the box.

Rob

getwilde wrote:

Reply to
Robert Side

Wow! I can only imagine the view. It must be magnificent enough to outweigh all the challenges of the solution (below)

Well, let's see: a pole on a peak... You definitely need protectors on both ends. That would further complicate the power transmission. Or, rather, you'd be locked into whatever was designed for use with telephone lines because it would be cist prohibitive to make/certify your own protectors

Well, I do not understand that part: the modem will require less power yet you've figured out how to power the WiFi router (sitting on the same pole) first. Why not split the juice and power the modem, too? What it's going to be, solar panel with a bank of batteries?

No, not the DC power that you'd need for the modem. Well except those rare moments when it goes down and up again. I remember having to deal with an application where power supply wiring was intentionally bound with (non-twisted) pair to decrease noise for a phone application.

Do not worry about signal degradation because of DC power. Worry about complexity of the setup with intermixed multiple media and power sources. I am not sure how reliable it's going to be out there in the wild.

No off-shelf equipment I know off (which does not mean it does not exist)

I thought you said you figured out the WiFi piece ... Just kidding. I think you need a solar setup with battery backup and I even vaguely remember seeing something like a solar-powered stand alone WiFi repeated described in an article in either Home Power or Solar Today magz. Or was it Make magazine? Can't recall but will look around maybe I'll find it and post here again.

I would go for a specialized ruggedized outdoor point-to-point Wireless Ethernet device like Motorola's Canopy or Wave Wireless SpeedLink 9200 but that would increase the costs compared to consumer-grade devices. It will also most likely increase power consumption although Wave Wireless's device gets powered from a PoE adapter which outputs 13W of power only. I don't have Motorola prices but a pair of SPEEDLink devices and good directional antennae will set you back about $1,600~$1,800. Actually, Motorola is even more than that so you get the idea.

Good luck! A place on the edge of the world that has mountain vistas AND Internet access is my dream as well, so I wish you all the best with the project.

Reply to
Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com

Solar panels are only working at more like 10% of their advertised peak performance due the weather and simple Earth rotation (I was just about to say Sun rotation but recalled that that was ruled out about 500 years ago :-) ). So they should be (over)sized with careful consideration.

Depending on the capacity of the UPS's battery of course. I'd say three hours tops from a reasonably small off-shelf model. It will probably waste more energy driving its own circuitry during that time than actually powering the router.

Reply to
Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com

It's not clear what your power source is... Is there power down at the pedestal?

Do you want the DSL modem down at the pedestal, or up at the WiFi point? I'd put the router down at the pedestal if there is power there.

There are ethernet extenders at netsys-direct.com; look at what's there.

You can easily run power over a pair that carrying ""dsl"" such as their HyperExtender. The bigger issue is lightning. If you are that far up in the sky, you'll have grief.

Reply to
David Lesher

Ummm...A DSL analog signal can run 1,500 feet with 48 volts on the pair, but I'd guess you're thinking of problems related to PoE. I don't know where you are hearing this from, but properly used PoE system has no issues - its when you start home brewing your own, you can run into problems. Most of the home made systems use 12 volts which require four times the current than a PoE injector (48 volts)to deliver sufficient power at the far end and the voltage drop across 100 meters of CAT5 24 ga. wire won't leave enough head room to power your far end devices.

Since the telecom guy mentioned something about powering your modem off the spare phone line pairs, I'm assuming you have commercial AC power at or close to the pedestal.

My observations......

1) Run four-pair direct burial cable from the ped to your tower. Gel filled 22 ga four-pair CAT3 cable runs around $250 per 1,000. The telco demarc (now called the NID - Network Interface Device) will have a loop protector, but you'll still need one at your tower end also, unless you can talk the telco into putting their NID at the end of your 700 ft. cable. 2) In the same trench after you back filled it about several inches (building codes will dictate the separation), run 10 ga or 8 ga direct burial rated 3-conductor-line 120 VAC cable - two power and a ground leads (a GFI at the meter end would be a good idea). [ Why is the song, "Stealing Electricity" by Tom Russell running through my head? There?s a Mexican dead up on a power line, He?s deader than yesterday?s communion wine.

He was trying to getting something he couldn?t afford for free, He was just a poor man stealing electricity. 10,000 volts and now he?s gone, He?s hanging on a cross-wire above Babylon. Hey baby ain?t that just like you and me, Love is like stealing electricity. ]

3) Run commercial grade WiFi radios:
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for the access point - $300 unit includes a 12 dBi patch antenna.
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for the house end - $270 unit includes a 12 dBi patch antenna also. I've used these for ten mile hops with excellent signal. So you don't need a 25 dB gain dish antenna at either end, unless if you have trees or insufficient Fresnel clearance. Both available from
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4) What if you don't have AC power at the ped? Figure on spending $3,000 plus on solar power.

I had considered solar power for my remote access points that required one kilowatt per 24-hours, but that was for a back haul radio along with the access point radio. You only will need a bit over 500 watts per 24 hours for your access point and modem. But, that was for Texas solar footprint and fairly clear skys.

Think about it...you only have about 4 hours a day of usable sunlight where the sun shines directly over the solar cells - thats starting from

2 hours before high noon and 2 hours after. The solar cells have to collect 50 watts in that four hour period to charge batteries to run your units into the afternoon, overnight, and into the next morning.

Next, you have to account for overcast skys...now we're talking about collecting 2,500 watts in the same four hour window in case you have five days of insufficient sunlight.

THEN you have to take in account the less solar energy in the higher latitudes. Also a control circuit that shuts off the batteries after 5 days is a good idea as you don't want to use more than 50% of their rated power to maintain a typical five year life of a deep discharge battery.

Reply to
decaturtxcowboy

Sorry...dunno whut happened to my word wrap

Reply to
decaturtxcowboy

Thank you for your comments, Robert.

I should have mentioned money . Yes, it's a huge issue! I've looked thoroughly at solar, and could get something set up for around $550 (80 watt panel (minimum) = $350+, 100-amp-hour lead-acid battery = $75, charge controller =$75, mountings = $50. But it didn't sound real dependable, I didn't want to worry about theft, and didn't want to march out there in +5ft of snow anytime we got a big overnight storm. Plus, I hoped I could do it cheaper/more-dependable with AC power.

I'll comment on option 2 below, which is similar to some of other responses. Thanks again, Justin

Robert Side wrote:

Reply to
getwilde

Maybe a solution such as 'Avalan' would work for you. Much better transmission distance than 802.11 and maybe you could mount the transmitter at or near the pedestal rather than all the way at the top of the hill.

Bob

getwilde wrote:

Reply to
Bob

I didn't know about the DSL analog signal being able to run 1500 feet with 48 volts. That's what I needed to hear! I looked into PoE: Perhaps put the modem near Qwest's pedestal, then run Cat5e or Cat6 to the router out on the peak. But the 100 meter limitation of Cat5e falls far short of the 700 feet that I need to go. Plus, I still have the problem of powering the router out there on the peak. A third approach would have been to put both the modem and the router right next to the telecom pedestal, but then I would have needed to run 700 feet of microwave RF (2.4gHz) wire to the peak, and would have cost a small fortune ($10k?) to get beefy-enough wire to not lose the entire signal to attenuation.

That is correct. I have 120volt AC outlet at the pedestal, and will be paying the owner a few bucks a month towards his electrical bill.

Great information. I'll read more into loop protectors and NIDs, and will see if I can convince Qwest to put it out at the peak.

I managed to buy 750ft of Drop Wire for $40 on eBay. This will just be run through the bushes, above grade (no vehichle nor foot traffic in the area). Land owner and Qwest both said this would be okay. Low voltage = no inspection from city/county (if I've read correctly). I understand its UV-resistant. If it gets chewed through or something, I'm only out $40, and this solution only has to last until we move back to the city... 2 or 3 years.

LOL. Speaking of free electricity... I've looked at everything! Solar, wind, water (there's a river 400 feet below the peak), even earth battery (I'd be digging for 3 years :).

Working on a tiny budget here *sob sob*. (Yes, I realize that by skimping, I'm sacrificing dependability, and probably increasing maintenance. This is how it must be.) I've already built 2 bi-quad parabolic antennas with old primestar dishes and have tested them out with a Senao NL2511CD+EXT2 laptop card and cheapo router (powered for a couple hours off of 8 AA batteries and radio shack parts). Decent signal strength. What a thrill that moment was! I do have obstructions in the first Fresnel zone, so I wasn't sure this would work. The antennas are high-enough gain to compensate, though, I guess. 2ms ping times, ~60dB signal... for a link budget of 25dB or more! More than enough for 1-2Mbps, which is all that I'll get through DSL anyway.

Yep, very expensive. I calculated I could do solar for a minimum of $550 just for solar, but probably more $$$ by the time it was all up and working.

This is very close to the same figures I came to when running my calculations, too. Although I think I only allowed for like 2 days of overcast skies. That probably explains the price difference.

Reply to
getwilde

I hadn't heard of Avalan. Thank you for the suggestion. I'll research further. Price looks a bit higher than what I'd hoped to spend, but it might alleviate a lot of headaches. I also looked at Canopy, and even WiMax -- but both were cost-prohibitive for my budget, the latter being much more so plus introducing problems with licensed spectrum.

Bob wrote:

Reply to
getwilde

We absolutely love it there. 6 minutes from the city, but completely isolated. No neighbors. Brook running under our back patio. Deer and elk and moose in the yard. Raccoons getting in the garbage. :) Well, the raccoons and no internet access are the only bad parts.

By protectors, you probably mean something different than ground rods, huh? I'm not overly worried about lightning... there are higher peaks all around us. (But maybe I should be?) The peak that I'm putting the antenna on is more like an outcropping above the canyon floor. There are tall mountain ridges to either side of it. But, maybe Qwest will insist on lightning arrestors and these "protectors" that you mention. Any idea what those cost? Or any names that I can further research?

My bad. By wi-fi, I meant the wi-fi signal from the peak to my home. I do need to figure out how to power both the router and the modem. As mentioned in OP, I'm hoping to power both from the same wire that carries the DSL analog signal.

Can you clarify what you mean here regarding DC power?

Yeah, I'm a bit worried about reliability. I guess I figured AC power would be more reliable than solar (at least at my budget). But maybe not?

You probably read the Popular Science article on this. Cool stuff.

I'm leaning toward off-the-shelf equipment (again because of cost) like WET11 v1 with a Senao PCMCIA card inside. (~$90) Or a RouterBoard RB112 card with a WLM54AG miniPCI card inside (~$150). The latter gives me the ability to tweak ACK timings for the 2 mile distance... though I don't know if this is necessary or not.

Thank you for your response.

Reply to
getwilde

Thanks David, I think I cover some of these points in other responses. Yes, 120 volt power is available at the pedestal. Amazing, with all of my reading about the 100 meter limit with ethernet, that I never saw anything about ethernet extenders. I'll research this HyperExtender product that you mention. If the price is right, that might open other possibilities.

David Lesher wrote:

Reply to
getwilde

D'oh. Actually, with that product, it looks like I still have the problem of getting power out to the peak 700 ft away. Unless I'm reading this wrong, HyperExtender is expecting 120 volt AC at each end of the connection.

Reply to
getwilde

Avalan is at 'avalanwireless.com' You can buy 'samples' from their website. If you buy the indoor model, and do y our own enclosure I think you can get away for about $500.00. It will shoot about 40 miles through free space. I'm shooting my home LAN to my office over about

10 miles. Works great, just like a long cable!

Bob

getwilde wrote:

Reply to
Bob

My bad...I meant to say DSL runs 15,00 feet with 48 volt talk battery on the pair.

But that's not to say its good for PoE past 300 feet. Granted, the telcos use it as a form of PoE when powering remote subscriber units on a customer's outside back wall next to the demarc. The C.O. line cards are current limited to typically under 100 mA, so that gives you almost

5 watts close in and about 2 watts far out which is sufficient to power their on-premise equipment. On the other hand, standard PoE is rated at 12 watts out to 330 feet (the 100 meter CAT5 limit)

Why worry about CAT5's 100 Mbs specs, use the further reaching CAT3 10 Mbps specs, after all...DSL max'es out at 6 Mbps.

True

Yeah...6 inch diameter coax is a bit pricey.

Ok, having commercial at one end helps a lot. I'd go with the:

1) Run four-pair direct burial cable from the ped to your tower. Gel filled 22 ga four-pair CAT3 cable runs around $250 per 1,000. The telco demarc (now called the NID - Network Interface Device) will have a loop protector, but you'll still need one at your tower end also, unless you can talk the telco into putting their NID at the end of your 700 ft. cable. 2) In the same trench after you back filled it about several inches (building codes will dictate the separation), run 10 ga or 8 ga direct burial rated 3-conductor-line 120 VAC cable - two power and a ground leads (a GFI at the meter end would be a good idea).

An alternative would be a Linksys WAP54G Access Point in access point mode at the mid point and another WAP54G in client mode at your house. they are only $89 apiece

Not for a mere $500. Someone tossed out an 80 watt solar array output, but that's not going to be enough. Remember, you have to gather 500 watts over a four hour period to last you over the following 24 hours.

Reply to
decaturtxcowboy

Do you know what the piece of equipment is called that would be used to inject power into the same wire pair as is carrying the DSL signal?

When I was reading about the Cat5 100 meter limitation, it sounded like the limitation was related as much to the hardware as the wire. I can't find the site now, but the basic idea was that router timings are set to wait up to the time (in nano-seconds) that it would take for a signal to travel through 100 meters of wire. Longer than 100 meters, and you start seeing collisions... or something like that. Supposedly Cisco offered some industrial hardware that allows this timing to be adjusted up to 300 meters or so, but it was pricey. Don't know if it's true or not, but if so, it seems that I'd have the same problem with CAT3, unless by dropping down to 10mbps, timings become more lax.

Another option I'd looked into was running 10Base2 wire (thicknet), with a 500 meter limit. But wire is so hard to find, and expensive. As is the antiquated hardware.

And, with all of these solutions, I'm stuck trying to power equipment at both ends of the wire.

I'm really trying to avoid running two seperate wires. Also, as mentioned prior, I won't by burying this 700 ft length, but instead running it over the surface. The ground is so rocky that it would take a tractor to dig a trench. So, I don't have the option to run 120 VAC out there. :(

Thank you, great suggestion. And the price is right. : ) The only downside to Linksys, from what I've read, are the relatively poor sensitivity of their radios. Because I have some Fresnel zone obstructions, I'm going to play it safe and go with beefier radios. I mention in previous post a couple other options I'm looking at, including a modified WET11 with Senao card, and a RouterBoard 112 with MiniPCI.

Reply to
getwilde

This is a 2 year then throw it away right?

How about running fiber and a second cable for 2 dc power supplies.

Use $100 media converters at each end to transport the modem Ethernet connection over fiber.

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Put the power supplies for the wireless router and the media converters at the pod. Then you eliminate the entire solar issue at the peak.

Of course it all depends on how well traveled the wire path might be in terms of creatures crewing, stepping, etc... on the cable bundle and how much "armor" you might need. Don't forget falling limbs.

This biggest issue I see with all of this is how hard is it to get someone to the pod to power cycle things when needed?

And as a side note it might make sense to put the router at the pod and put an AP on the peak. Then you can trouble shoot at the pod with a laptop without that 700' hike back and forth.

Reply to
DLR

That isn't what you want. Its teleco central office equipment and only good for 12 watts...about half of what you need.

Use direct burial CAT3 - you don't need CAT5 speed and you don't have to bury it. Its just that direct burial cable is more studier and water proof. Or you could use outdoor rated CAT3. Lowes and Home Depot carry

1,000 ft. boxes of outside rated CAT5.

May have to.

The specs are somewhat less than commercial grade WiFi equipment.

Inscape: Receiver Sensitivity: -88dBm @ 11Mbps and -74dBm @ 54Mbps. Transmission Power: 21 dBm @ 11Mbps and 18 dBm @ 54Mbps.

Linksys: Receiver Sensitivity: -80 dBm @ 11Mbps and -65dBm @ 54Mbps. Transmission Power: 18 dBm @ 11Mbps and 15 dBm @ 54Mbps.

Run 3rd party firmware on a pair of Linksys WRT54xx (Linux version). Run both radios in mesh mode at higher power to compensate for reduced receiver sensitivity.

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Reply to
decaturtxcowboy

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Oh, yeah. You can get Ethernet Extenders which work on CAT3 or CAT5 which might make it easier.

Reply to
DLR

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