MCSE and CCIE

These are totally different certifications. MCSE if for Microsoft products and CCIE is for Cisco products. The MCSE covers operating systems (Windows of course), Windows networking (which is different than the core routing a CCIE would do), etc..

A CCIE does core Internet routing and switching. Interconnecting large scale data centers with a multitude of protocols.

They could be considered complementary, they are really different so it's not like if you do one it's a total waste to do the other. Regardless of which one you choose (or both), learn the material, don't take the courses or buy the books that are geared to teach you to just pass the test (that much harder to do with the CCIE due the the extensive lab tests), I have a lot of money cleaning up after people that got their certifications but didn't really know the material.

If your just getting started I would work my way up to CCIE by going the CCNA and CCNP routes first. CCIE is a major undertaking.

Dennis

r snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

CCIE is for Cisco products. The MCSE covers operating

core routing a CCIE would do), etc..

data centers with a multitude of protocols.

like if you do one it's a total waste to do the other.

the courses or buy the books that are geared to teach

extensive lab tests), I have a lot of money cleaning up

and CCNP routes first. CCIE is a major undertaking.

Thank you both for providing such valuable feedback. I should maybe also mention that my first professional milestone is to implement and maintain small business networks of maybe 5 to 20 computers in a predominantly windows based enviroment.

Once I am fairly comfortable doing that ( hopefully after 3 years or so) then I like to attempt to expand my knowledge to take care of bigger LANS and WANS.

Having said that and based what both of you mentioned maybe I should get the MCSE first to accomplish my first milestone.

I should also say that I really want the hands on knowledge rather than the certification. Although I am very aware that the actual knowlege comes on the job with hands on experience I hope that the certification will give me some sort of a jump start and will force me to attain valuable knowledge to get started with smaller jobs.

I actually think that some practical handson classes which teach you to setup a network and troubleshoot and maintain it is a better than maybe going for certification, but again I am not knowledgable enough to assess that.

If you guys have any thoughts on that I would appreciate it.

Cheers, Rob

As both an MCSE, and CCIE I'll answer that for you. They are indeed complimentary, but to be honest 90%+ of my job is either Routing/switching or Voip/IPT. That being said, the mcse was useful in two ways: first for Cisco Partner certification as one of the roles dictated an mcse and exchange knowledge (which I have basics in) and second, it allows you to interact with the Sys admins when troubleshooting issues. I am certainly nowhere as adept at MS stuff as I was 10 years ago before I went down the Cisco path, but I let my Mcse lapse before I found I actually could use it. There is some crossover skill, but all in all two different credentials reflecting two different job functions. Good IP knowledge is useful in any job role however. I would start with the MCSE, and as mentioned, CCNA/DA.

good luck Jason

You've got a fairly detailed plan set out there.

You have some options.

You may want to consider taking a step-by-step approach.

Start with MCSA (Certified Systems Administrator). This requires fewer exams to pass and is a little easier to attain. The exams count towards the MCSE which you can get later.

Along the way, add a Security certification (think about CompTIA's Security+). Then start thinking about the Cisco track. Start with a CCNA. Add others as you see the need.

The Cisco CCIE certification has occasionally been compared to getting a PhD in Cisco Networking. It's that hard. It's not unattainable, but it is quite difficult. The CCIE has two parts, the written exam and the hands-on lab. There are a few folks out there that haven't been able to pass the lab. Everything I've read about it indicates that it is a very challenging exam. That's why there are so few full CCIE's and also why they command the salaries they get.

Good luck.

John

Much as I respect the CCIE, comparing to a PhD is wishful thinking. A PhD is 3-4 years of solid research resulting in the creation of something novel that adds to the world's body of knowledge via a dissertation of hundreds, if not thousands, of pages.

The CCIE is a series of multiple choice exams and one nasty lab-exam based on deep knowledge of routing, switching and complementary networking technologies along with a good whack of how one particular vendor implements them on their equipment. Studying solidly, its 1-2 years course-work and hands-on experience, requires no preparation of dissertation nor original thought.

A fairer comparison is between a CCIE and a post-graduation Masters-by-coursework. CCIE follows a similar course-structure.

ie:

INTRO -> CCNA -> BSCI -> BCRAN -> BCMSN -> CIT

-> ARCH -> QoS -> BGP -> WLANSE -> CCIE -> CCIE (lab)

12 Courses is about equivalent to a post-grad masters. Naturally the earlier ones are easier than the later ones, but if you do them properly, the practical skills build up to a point where the CCIE exam becomes approachable.

Let me reiterate. This CCIE exam is nasty - you have to know the stuff.

Matt

Thats a pretty fair comparison. I have my ccie and am working on my second, but in no way could you consider it to be at the level of a PhD. And since it is a reality (somewhat) based exam it can't be compared to a PhD anyways. I have met many doctoral students whom, while very intelligent, could not function in the real world for more than 10 mins. Then again, without the their like, there would be no new technology to become an "expert" in either.

yamahasw40 wrote:

I've done postgrad Masters degree courses in two areas (knowing nothing about one) - and they aren't that difficult (i.e. you can do them by numbers if you know what you're doing). Picking a subject for the dissertation is the hardest bit

CCIE is probably slightly harder if you start knowing nothing about the networking. Has taken me 4 years to get to CCCNP level (on and off :))

True, but then there are master's degrees that build on undergraduate knowledge (like an MSc) and those that are more cross-disciplinary (MBA).

Zero to CCNP took me about 18 months, but I moved countries in that time, so I reckon I have a pretty good excuse. The jump to CCIE will be about the same, biggest difference being that I now have management sponsorship.

Matt

Sorry, but that looks like about a years worth of undergraduate study to me.

I've done the CCNP stuff, and I've done the University route. The Cisco stuff just isn't complicated enough to say that it is more than a semester worth of University level study, or that you need an undergraduate degree to do it. Lengthwise, maybe it is about the same as a Masters, but you can't really tell me that the BCMSN is more difficult than that Thermodynamics course I took back inthe late 80s.

You don't need partial differential equations to understand

Int f0/1 switchport access vlan 34 spanning-tree portfast no shutdown description porn_server

Or 19 hours worth credit at a hardcore engineering school.

Not that Thermo is "rocket science" but I agree. The breadth of topics you have to study can be daunting, but it's not difficult in an of itself.

Your right, I've stretched it out a bit but it is still not a masters degree level stuff.

I just did a microeconomics course, which I would rate about the same as BCMSN. Neither was difficult, but it is just a lot of new stuff.

I also did undergrad physics, and you will note that I didn't compare the CCIE to an undergrad physics degree. There is no tensor calculus in cisco exams - thought I too loved partial differential equations. I didn't think much of thermodynamics as most of the statistical mechanics bored me shitless. I was a relativity junkie.

I am currently doing an MBA, and each Cisco subject is about as difficult and time consuming as an MBA subject. (This says more about the relative simplicity of an MBA compared to a physics degree). However, the MBA assignments and exams are a lot harder than the Cisco computer quizzes - there's a big difference between a 3-hour written exam and doing 65 multiple choice questions in 90 minutes. But we aren't talking about passing the exams - we are talking about mastering the material.

If you did a fourth year lab exam as part of your Honours Year plasma physics course, you might have an idea where to place the CCIE lab exam. That one test is what elevates the CCIE to its current status. Anybody who sees the CCIE written component as anything more than either a stepping stone to the lab or as a convenient way to re-certifiy everything else - is kidding themselves.