wiring 11 Maine summer cabins for Internet

Your family has enough $$ to own ELEVEN lakefront cabins, in Maine no less, and they're worried about doing the phone and net wiring "as cheaply as possible?"

Eegads...

Do yourself, your family, and your resident renters a favor: Don't take "cheap" shortcuts. That's a sure way to make the whole network unreliable, and end up with maintenance headaches later down the road.

Just because VoIP is Out There does not necessarily mean it's a "viable solution," especially in case of emergency. If you have a power outage with a VoIP network, the phones are all going to go dead.

What if someone has a medical emergency under those conditions, and they either don't have a cellphone or they're out of range of a tower? How are they going to call for help?

I say this as an electronics technician for the Washington State Patrol. We HAVE to think "contingency!" It's part of our job.

Anyway, you should plan for separate wiring for both HARDWIRE POTS phones and network. If this were me, I'd run a minimum of two, ideally three, CAT-5E drops to each cabin: One for phone, two for network.

Have all the drops meet up to a patch panel in one central location, air-conditioned (for the benefit of network equipment and any servers you may choose to add at a later date) and environmentally protected. Also consider physical security, and invest in a good door lock.

It is. It would also be the worst possible choice for reasons I've already stated.

If you're going to run coaxial to the cabins, best to have it be limited to being a cable TV or satellite TV distribution link.

This is correct, and it is also the most reliable way to go even if it does involve a little more cost and work.

You'll need a router no matter what, and said router should have a good firewall built in, one with a nice little feature called 'stateful packet inspection.' And you'll probably want more than a DSL pipe if you're going to be looking at eleven people using bandwidth, possibly simultaneously. You -might- even want to consider a T1.

You'll need to look into the local electrical codes in your part of the country. Some states or counties do not allow anyone but a licensed electrician to install wiring of the type you're describing. Others will allow the property owner to do the work on the proviso that it be inspected and signed off on once the job is completed.

As for wiring: You didn't state if you're going aerial or underground. There are specific types of cable for each application. You'll need to select the appropriate one.

Tools: Never sell yourself short on installation tools and hardware! Get the right stuff to do the job. Graybar Electric and Platt Electric can both be of assistance in this endeavor.

I could take up half a book detailing what else you'll need to be concerned with, but I'm sure others will chime in. Above all, though, my advice is do NOT think "cheapest possible" for a job like this. You WILL regret it in the long term picture if you do.

Happy cabling.

If you're string cable, might as well pull in a couple more pairs.

CAT 5 is limited to 100 M (328 feet) per hop. 10base5 will go the distance, but that sort of gear is getting scarce these days and will only handle 10 Mb.

There are (were?) media converters available, which would convert one type of ethernet to another.

Given the limitations of ethernet over copper, you might want to consider fibre. It'll cost a bit more initially, but it will go the distance at far greater bandwidth and eliminate a lot of problems

snipped-for-privacy@boomerang.net (dk253) wrote in news:e7bb21ea.0408270907.3adfa642 @posting.google.com:

VoIP is expensive - probably not worth the maintence effort for summer cabins. Stick with Analog voice. Analog Voice can be run over Cat5e (you can have upto 4 lines on a Cat5e cable).

Coax is actually more expensive than Cat5e.

Go away!!!!

To phone between the cabins, or to get fone lines from the fone company? VoIP is cool...but not as an excuse to draw less cables.

Does your family own the whole property? Otherwise some agency may come along and dig up all your nice cabling and fine you or whatever. And especially if you own the whole area..have you considerede a wireless solution? Should be brilliant to be able to work on your computer from under a tree. Also, if you go for VoIP there should be some wireless IP phones that can be carried around while out of the cabin.

However....for a wired solution I personally recommend using structured cabling, maybe having cabinets in one or two (I would do 3 or 4) of the cabins so that no run will exceed 80 m. It may be a good idea to pass more than 1 cable at a time....say two or three to each cabin. Very important that the cable used can withstand the outdoor environment and physical protection may be necessary (dunno what cable chewing animals live in Maine...all I know is that Maine is in Canada and canada is in north america and that's across the atlantic).

Good luck with your wiring and the eventual LAN parties :)

B.

Over the distance quoted, ground potential may be a factor, as has been discussed in this forum in the past. For safety reasons, consider either fiber or wireless, with fibre being my choice in this instance. Underground will probably put the fiber at less physical risk over the long term. Put a "minihub" or switch in each cabin to allow for more than one connection per location. "Wire" to a central location.

One thing he mentioned, was the 1/4 mile run for the 11 cabins. Ethernet will not work over those distances on twisted pair. His choices for that distance would be either 10base5 (assuming it's still available) or fibre. I'd go with the fibre and use proper outside plant cable for the phones. If he insists on CAT 5 for the ethernet, he'll need switches or bridges to reach any cabin beyond 100 metres.

When they'd move it?

No it's not. It's on this side. ;-)

You have 2 choices:

String fiber or use 802.11 wireless. Ethernet over copper between building is a genuine bad idea, because of ground differential issues.

If you can cover all the cabins with one 802.11 source, it's likely cheaper than fiber.

You might use VoIP but a lot depends on your clientele; what do they expect in the woods? Failing that, plow in copper for the phones.

Best and cheap seldom go together.

You may believe this. salemen will tell you this. Most users find out that VoIP is only good for a limited number of applications (inter-office trunking) and requires high volume to payout. I doubt you have either. Run std copper phones, well protected at each building.

You've received lots of good advice from this group. But you may be on the right track here -- coax for cable TV (or community antenna) and piggyback DOCSIS on top, just like the cablecos. You likely don't need high bandwidth between cabins.

Or daisy chain them for the distance. In a T-storm, you are likely to fry some guest's expensive laptop. I would _not_ run ethernet. HPNA is safer.

You will need to find some sort of DOCSIS head-end (Cisco?).

-- Robert

And if I'd paid more attention, I'd have taken that into account. James, you're absolutely correct -- thanks for spotting that.

10B-5 is pretty much dead. I would agree that fiber is the best bet, along with standard telco plant for the voice side.

Either way, it's not going to be exactly 'cheap.'

The way I'd run it, for the phones at least, would be to run a 50- pair feeder cable (allowing for at least two pairs per cabin, room for growth, and room for the 'problem pairs' which always crop up) underground, with a small pedestal and four-pair drop wire to each cabin.

The network side I'm a bit fuzzier on, since I've never done a large multipoint arrangement over outdoor territory. I would guess, however, that a home run of fiber to each cabin, along with a media converter for 10/100bT at each cabin end, would be the way to go.

Or perhaps there would be a way to have one master fiber, and a fiber-to-copper conversion in the pedestal for each cabin? Perhaps someone with greater expertise along those lines will comment.

Keep the peace(es).

Unless you've got 2 seriously malfuntioning NICs, this shouldn't be an issue. Ethernet, over copper pairs is transformer isolated at each end and the NICs are built to withstand a few hundred volts. Also, if all cabins are powered from a common source, there shouldn't be much of a ground differential. However, fibre is still a better idea.

It's not the normal running ground differential that's a problem. The XFOs can certainly isolate that. It's the differentials during a nearby lightening strike.

I'd expect that each cabin has it's own subpanel, breakers and ground stake. This will depend on local electrical codes, but it could take 1.5 miles of overhead/underground wire to run circuits versus 1/4 mile with a subfeeder.

-- Robert

And transients from lightning can easily be in the thousands of volts. That cooks your NIC card, and hopefully nothing else, but in a laptop, will it matter??

And with a 0.25 mile distance, there's MORE than enough possible ground differential.

Lightning is nasty shit. You can go to great lengths to CYA with a vulnerable scheme; or just avoid the whole mess.

Agreed that lightning is nasty.

Why do we approve of a copper-based CATV system for inter-building but prefer fiber for data ?

Is there a CATV black box that uses the cable bandwidth to provide a channel for a shared LAN and a bunch of voice channels (and TV channels, of course). A set-top box in each housing unit would provice TV, voice, and data.

A sat-TV dish on each unit wouldn't cost much to install and Direct-TV (or whoever) might have a master-contract deal that allows each unit to choose the entertainment package they want (and pay for it) thru the landlord.

There is FCC-approved high power (a few watts) WiFi in the 802.11a band. I'm sure it would go the distance you need. You might need a small directional antenna on each unit. The customer interface would be copper ethernet (RJ-45).

Your customers might want 802.11b/g near each unit or in public areas.

Because there are good lightening arrestor blocks that should be installed at each building entrance and tied to building ground. Also, TV (and phone) equipment is designed to handle the surges these blocks let through.

This is not the case for TP ethernet, which was designed for indoors and the XFOs are designed more for anti-static or accidental contact with AC. Lightening arrestors for ethernet _do_ exists, but they are hard to find.

-- Robert

History, so to say.

CATV was, like phones, rooted in WAN applications, and they both had decades of School of Hard Knocks in dealing with lightning. Data never did. It came in....on a phone modem.

But even that is not 100% true. For decades, Ma had little or no lightning issues. Think about it: There was a black 300 or 500 set on the desk, connected into the drop, period. No local power needed. No differential ground. There was a carbon block protector whose function was protecting the phone...which had no solid state devices for years... from catching fire.

When 1A2 keysystems, and Princess phones that used local power appeared in the 60's, She started having grief. I saw a film She made [side-note: remember "Our Mr. Sun"?] for craft folks; emphasizing single point grounding.

CATV users lose equipment all the time, but it's the customers. A friend in St. Louis reports her mom got a tree struck; her TV, cordless phone, answering machine, and toaster are DOA. The microwave is amazingly still going.

Too pricey.... these are Maine cabins, not Vail....

Thank you to all that posted... some great information!

I just got back so this is the first I've been able to look at your responses.

So some follow-up questions if you don't mind...

The cabins are all in a row with phone service only available in the first (main) cabin because it's the only one close to the road.

1) Knowing nothing of fiber, is it possible to run fiber cable from one cabin to another and daisy chain them rather than a single hub/switch that I need to run different cables to each cabin? If so who makes equip that will do that? I cannot seem to find what I need that will accomplish this.

2) There was some talk of wireless... if I put an 802.11(?) box in each cabin and set them up as repeaters will it work between cabins? I always thought (maybe wrongly) that wifi worked indoors only because dsignals could bounce off walls. The cabins are between 100 and 200 feet away from each other. I also read somewhere about wifi directional antenai or amplifiers? But I cannot seem to find them.

Thanks again for your help

Dave

Everyone else can answer better (I just know what I read, not by experience), but since I'm first, I'll head you in a better direction to start:

In article , dk253 wrote: " Thank you to all that posted... some great information! " " I just got back so this is the first I've been able to look at your " responses. " " So some follow-up questions if you don't mind... " " The cabins are all in a row with phone service only available in the " first (main) cabin because it's the only one close to the road.

The guy who said to do copper for this (POTS = Plain Old Telephone Service) with home-running for all of them seemed like the guy with the best answer. Since I'm mad that my single building Cat6 installation with GbE switch is causing lots of AM radio interference, I wished I had used STP (Shielded Twisted Pair) instead. Some company claims to make an STP so good that it can even carry decent CATV on a pair. I would attempt to rationalize this for POTS --- I know, total overkill, but hey, you get CATV out of it too. Otherwise, next step down, I'd try to rationalize STP Cat 5e/6 + RG6QS, then STP Cat 5e + RG6, then UTP Cat5e + RG6, then UTP Cat 3 + pull strings for RG6 later .... you get the idea. Part of knowing what to do here is what their television delivery needs already are.

There is a possibility you can keep one POTS line for emergency use as a party line for all huts (with a sign that says "only use this line for emergencies; test one short call when you first enter to make sure it works") and use Internet phones for the rest if they are not picky about voice quality and reliability (VOIP tends to have lower voice quality than circuit switched 64,000 bit channels, which is a traditional POTS digital format). That's really being cheap, though. I'd still home-run a bunch of POTS cable (Cat 3, but I'd do at least Cat 5e).

" 1) Knowing nothing of fiber, is it possible to run fiber cable from " one cabin to another and daisy chain them rather than a single " hub/switch that I need to run different cables to each cabin?

Yes, but:

a) practice is usually not to; b) it is more expensive; c) it is less flexible.

FWIR, SONET is a ring system for fiber that I think actually does this. I assume you could do it with any link type as long as you go through the expense to set up the topology. In other words, it's probably cost prohibitive, so don't do it; just star network it (home run everything (= all to one point, no serial (= daisy chained) system)). It *would* be more reliable if you did do a full circle and the equipment was good, but like I said, too expensive.

" If so who makes equip that will do that? I cannot seem to find what " I need that will accomplish this.

I don't know; others can say.

" 2) There was some talk of wireless... if I put an 802.11(?) box in " each cabin and set them up as repeaters will it work between cabins?

Ugh. This sounds like a headache. I think repeaters would be a bad first choice, but wouldn't totally rule it out.

" I always thought (maybe wrongly) that wifi worked indoors only

Wrong.

" because dsignals could bounce off walls. The cabins are between 100 " and 200 feet away from each other. I also read somewhere about wifi " directional antenai or amplifiers?

One of the posts here gave a URL.

" But I cannot seem to find them. " " Thanks again for your help " " Dave

Overall, I recommend fiber, just from what I've read about it:

a) not subject to electrical problems (voltage differential, lightning, surges, ground loops, etc. (a lot of those names are different aspects of the same things I think)); b) goes further; c) because of (a), government codes for it are *FAR* easier to abide by.

d) Radio is still messy.

It would be a good idea to set up Wifi anyway for those who have Wifi cards but no Ethernet jack.

Unfortunately, the above still doesn't get rid of use of POTS as a method of delivery. One question I have is how you ground POTS in this situation; do you buy a bunch of DEMARCS (NIDS?) for yourself, attach them and drive a bunch of ground rods with each DEMARC (each hut has its own ground rod already for electric, so should share? -- keep POTS line close enough for ground rod but far enough away from AC for EMF & safety), or what? Anyway, that'd be your POTS. You'd tie them in in a closet in the one cabin with the patch panels with either patch panels to a 110 punchdown block that connects them all or something. (Normal stranded jumpers for the patch panels.)

In all cases, you have to use proper underground cable and conduit. Can you use normal horizontal cable in the right kind of conduit? Can conduit just be plastic (PVC or something better like Polyethelyne (like SDR 17 (that's overkill and for the wrong application?))) One for telephone (copper) and one for fiber, and perhaps one for cable too. Or one really big one for a combination? Who knows. Run it apart from electric (not near it).

Are you trenching (rent a trencher machine)? How much sand, compaction, etc.? The deeper the better (30" for gophers one web site said). Mark the line somehow (one site I was at yesterday had an actual tape that you lay in the ditch above the line that says "electrical line buried here" or something; I put nice white sand above the pipe and then above the informative tape too). Put it onto drawings so you know where to look for it.

Don't forget Internet layers: does the ISP bring in static IP#s that you have to assign? If it DHCPs, will it have enough? Will you NAT? etc. Those are not discussed in this group; I'm just mentioning it since it is something else you'll have to do. You have to make enough room in your main patch closet for all this equipment, plus any air conditioning necessary for them (heating and cooling --- such as a simple geothermal heat pump loop to the closet --- perhaps even in pipes in the same trench you're digging for the lines? (! --- water right above electric pipes --- ugh!)).

So much to consider. "Cheap" isn't the word I would have thought of when starting this project.

Others can tell you about the zen of current radiation therapies, I mean Wifi products that are on the market right now.

Cheap: string cheap indoor horizontal Cat5e without consideration to electrical safety straight on ground surface without protection; plug into 10mbit hubs in serial at all locations. It might work for a few minutes, or even a whole day or something. You will: a) be endangering people and property; b) be endangering property; c) violating safety laws; d) be very expensive to fix (worst-case scenereos include burnt down things, killed people, etc. from lightning meltdowns, but could be less severe, like all electronics destroyed, etc.). It would not last long, *no matter what*. But, it would be *VERY* cheap, in a Mexican sense. I WRITE NOT TO DO IT.

Do your family own all the land between the cabins? If not you need to get permission from any land owner who's land you might want to run cables over.

POTS is a lot easier than VOIP, especially if you are not that familiar with networking.

The maximum length of each cable can be no longer than 100 metres.

You could put a switch in each cabin and link between each cabin, the cables between each cabin would average around 40 metres.