Automatic fire sprinklers

You were the one spouting numbers... 20 per year... I am not going to guess, it is up to you to back your statistics and conclusion reached from a very shaky and recent data set to say that the requirements for GFCI's in bathrooms and other damp locations had NO effect at all on the number of fatalities... All I claimed was that such things would not be required if there was not a trend of accidents...

You want to use statistics you need to use them properly and have access to more than a few years of data to make such concrete claims...

Its all on you Smitty... Either find those numbers going back say to the time when homes were mostly electrified or admit you only looked up the most recent numbers which BEST supported your statements and move on...

~~ Evan

Perhaps you do not know how to read the Constitution nor how to interpret what is written there and how the Supreme Court of the United States has interpreted and clarified the document in the ensuing 223 years since it was written by the founding fathers and architects of our country...

The fact that you can *buy* anything is at the discretion of the US Congress which has the sole authority on the regulation of Commerce in the United States...

Article I, § 8:

-- "To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;"

(Commonly referred to as the "Commerce Clause")

-- "To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;"

-- "To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof."

(Commonly referred to as the "Necessary and Proper Clause")

So it is written there, just not in the terms which you seem to need it to be so that you can clearly understand it I guess...

Unless you are building a log cabin using only locally available materials (meaning you chopped down the logs yourself) you are engaging in and benefiting from interstate commerce to procure your supplies and materials which had to move across state lines to arrive at the local store from which you purchased them... THAT gives Congress the power to decide on how those materials should be sold and used... Or to require any safety laws it feels are necessary...

It is my opinion that in the next few coming generations of the National Building Code that automatic fire sprinklers will soon be a nationwide requirement...

Commerce Clause might not work for 'intra' state commerce. see Montana gun case. Many states have signed onto the case. States contend if your commerce is all done in one state and purchases come from that same state you are intra state and out of the reach of the fed. this would be one way for the states to reign in the out of control federal govt..

? "Shaun Eli" wrote .>

I'd like to see if they really save lives. How many people are killed by smoke inhalation before a sprinkler would activate? I'm thinking of a smoldering sofa or mattress that can kill you long before a flame gets hot enough to set off a sprinkler head. In the case of a heater fires, it may make a difference as the fire is in another area of the house.

As for property damage, it does save fire damage, but can replace it with water damage.

I'm not for or against, I just want to see more facts before deciding.

According to the NFPA records there has never been a multiple fatality fire in the US. Their records go back to around 1900. Most of the fatalities have been things like smoking in bed where the smoker was cooked, but nobody else, which would seem to answer your question. This includes hotels, nursing homes, hospitals, etc., in addition to residences.

to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."

I've seen multiple fatality fires just here in the local news in NC so something is wrong with your source.

is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."

is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."

The smoking in bed is one scenario where a sprinkler would not save your life due to smoke inhalation. The no multi fatality with sprinklers is accurate but the wording is when a system has been properly maintained and installed.

Why is there no single sprinkler head easy install kit for existing homes where they could be easily attached to an existing water source in a basement area where pipes are usual very accessible and where many fires start. and could well serve to suppress a fire. At one time a saw a small garden hose kit with single head you attached to back of washer and then hanged on ceiling. Want to know why its the same asses who make the rules UL etc who put so many restrictions on technology no one wants to make one unless its approved by some group to help limit law suits.

UL, ICC and NFPA are not your friend when you realize all the goings on in the background.

just like Arc fault breakers why make them unless you can get some agency to mandate them because most people given the chance would not use them making the cost high.

e is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."

In your prior post you simply said "there has been no multiple fire fatality". You did not say "there has been no multiple fire fatality when sprinklers where installed" which I'm now thinking it what you meant?

? "nick markowitz" wrote

Once it became a blaze though, it could save others if the smoke has not already gotten to them. Smoke detectors are far more important than sprinklers to warn people.

Some 20 years ago I saw a water valve that replaced the one on the feed line to your boiler. In the case of a fire from the boiler, it would activate as a sprinkler. The idea was that many fires start at residential heaters so this would take care of one common source. I never saw it in production though.

A compromise might be to have sprinklers at fireplaces, kitchens, laundry rooms and gas heat/hw. Dryers are common fire starter. Lint plus hot is bad.

is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."

James Are you saying that you can identify a specific instance of a multiple fatality fire in a property that is protected by a complete automatic fire sprinkler system. A yes or no answer would be appreciated.

-- Tom Horne

e is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."

I'm not saying that at all. I don't know one way or another. The original post, below, says nothing about the presence or absence of a sprinkler system. It just says there are no records of multiple deaths. I'm guessing now the intention was to say in locations with sprinklers but that's not in the post.

ree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."

Then some one was emptying those traps or all are in warm environment but any dry system you open around here you will find water I have 38 systems I keep an eye on and all 38 can not be put in wrong different installers and different years all use compressed air only one I do not have to screw with is one that has a nitrogen tank on it. I maintain the air system in a darkroom and get water in it as well and it has all kinds of traps filters etc but we still have to have desiccant units at the discharge points so air is clean and dry and does not cause problems when blowing off negatives. Like I said I have phone numbers of techs ,sprinkler guys and FM who will tell you same thing all the dry systems around here need drained at least monthly some time bi monthly or your in trouble.during the winter. maybe not this month maybe not 3-4 months but you will have a problem. It is the nature of the beast here. Where would you ,like me to send you all the FD and insurance reports.

fires, it may

tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."

You also forget your talking a military installation to a civilian one that's a very big difference. Military always uses highest grade of materials etc and idiot proofs everything. unfortunately my brother in law who was CPO and a communications officer on a sub found out when he came back to civilian life his skills did not easily transfer back we do things way differently in civilian life than in the military. I see it all the time with guys who are highly skilled military people who skills do not transfer back It is a dam shame. But its like apples and oranges. Some come home and get easily employed while many do not depending what you did for the military.

I'd go even farther and outlaw electricity to the house, someone here once said "If it saves ONE life it's worth it" so......

Tell you what I have apartment buildings I take care of which are all concrete design and they have had fires which never where more than a room or contents. That's the way to build if you want to keep fire from spreading. My 45 year old house has real concrete block walls in garage and real plaster with steel mesh not dry wall like you have today. If we did not build shit paper houses we would not need sprinklers mandated.

This whole thread is totally useless. This kind of shit is always propagated by "safety zealots" ( If it saves OOOOOOONE life ..... ) who are quickly followed by politicians who want to get re-elected by passing "feel good" (do nothing - unenforceable) laws.

Yeah, lets pass a law that says that everyone has to have sprinker systems in their house. So ok ...... you can force people to install them but you can't force them to maintain or even keep them in running condition. Lets say a fire occurs and the sprinkler system doesn't work because it wasn't maintained. Someone dies. Some one goes to jail. So now what? ....Does the person who died come back to life? No? Oh yeah, that's right. Some one gets sued and the family gets a lot of money or the guy goes bankrupt or doesn't have the means to pay and all of this is SUUUUUURE to make the next asshole who doesn't want to maintain a system think twice. Yeah ..... sure that's going to happen. Yep ..... Uh Huh!

In the meantime, people are paying millions of dollars to install and maintain system so that ...... what ..... a few lives a year are saved? The safety zealots say that it's worth it? Then let them pay for it.

This is all just as stupid as outlawing guns to law abiding people so that the criminals wont use them to commit crimes.

Thanks for clearing that up Mark, it all makes sense to me now.

Doug

See how it affects your home insurance rate and that will tell you.