HA Primer - Pos and cons of X-10, Z-wave, Insteon, UPB

So I already have a house chock full of X-10, but as usual reliability is still somewhat of an issue and commands still get lost in the ether. It would be nice to add a level of "robustness" to the system. So I start this thread and hope it can become a quick primer on the newer tech versus the X-10 or a mini buyers guide.

So what if any would be a good technology to invest in for your modern house ? What are the simple pros and cons of Z-wave and Insteon versus X-10 for a

24/7 PC based automation system. Are there any new technologies promising to make obsolete all the others ?

I'll open by summarizing X-10s pros and cons for newbies who might stumble upon this and leave the Zigbee Insteon, etc for other to chime in about.

An X-10 "controller" sends a signal to a "module". Modules can turn on, off or dim lights etc. The X-10 controllers and modules constitute a primitive network.

X-10 Build quality X-10 is the company who created the first home automation products for the consumer. The technology was fairly advanced for its day, but that was back in the seventies and has seen little improvement since then. X-10 has developed new models over the years but they have lacked the polish of a product suitable for modern homes. Indeed the company seems more interested in quantity of sales versus quality. The plastics they chose degraded and discolored readily, circuit boards suffered from cold solder joints, wall switch contacts were fragile. There are newer models but the best ones always seem to be made by companies other than X-10. Any serious old-school X-10 home automator likely has a box of dead X-10 parts waiting to be recycled when the next module dies. Home Automation got off to a rocky start since X-10 was doomed to be a hobby for the technically inclined. Poor build quality was X-10s first real problem.

X-10 and powerline noise X-10's underlying technology is part of its second problem. The homes powerlines that the modules are wired or plugged into, are used to distribute the signals. The signal is one way and modules have no provision to send an acknowledgment. More on that later. If you had an operating TV or motorized appliance plugged into the same circuit as a module, it was unlikely the module would work due to noise on the powerlines.

X-10 phase coupling Houses in North America use split phase wiring (2 x 110volt phases = 220V). The X-10 signal had to be able to jump across the from one phase to the other or the signal would only reach half the outlets in the house. A capacitive signal bridge of the phases using a module called a "phase coupler" helped for the most part but required wiring into a 220volt circuit either in a breaker box or a dryer or stove outlet. This was not for the average home owner and is the third problem.

X-10 device limitations There are 16 House codes x 16 Unit codes = 256 useable addresses. It was thought that no one would use more than 16 units in their houses. Signals travel on the powerline up to the power pole, cross over to the other phase and back down. In many cases a neighbor who used X-10 could control your lights if they share the same power pole. So the idea was to allow each house to use 16 modules and there could be 16 houses. Who'd have thought I could have 16 devices in a bedroom alone. So this is surely a limitation and X-10s fourth problem.

X-10 network speed Commands can only be sent at the zero crossing of the AC waveform which severely limits the amount of information that can be passed in a reasonable amount of time. X-10 control systems have visible lag due to the speed limitations. The fifth problem has and can not be solved with current X-10 technology.

X-10 one-way network A big hurdle for automators was not knowing if the signal reached the module or not. X-10s answer was the "2-way module". They are not really 2-way since they can't acknowledge a command directly but they can be polled. the problem is that due to the slow speed of the X-10 network the polling responses can collide with other commands being sent. X-10 2-way is not worth the extra money or trouble. This sixth problem is also hard wired into the protocol.

X-10 user unfriendly I had a friend insist on dimming his stereo with an X-10 lamp module, only to watch his amp go up in smoke taking the module with it. Okay these are electrical loads, and the problem is not unique to X-10, all electrical dimmers behave in a similar fashion. A consumer having to know what an inductive load is a mind bender for most, if not all, non technical people. The seventh problem for X-10.

Those are the 7 deadly sins in HA as I see it. Yes there may be more but lets get on to the good stuff. X-10 has a wide product line and the availability of unique modules not yet available with other network protocols. An example of this might be the PR511 floodlight motion detector. Pricing can also be a factor and X-10 seems to give stuff away killing the smaller dedicated home automation dealers.

Please confine the comments to other technologies since X-10 has already been covered.

Reply to
echo
Loading thread data ...

Since I seem to be one of the few X10 supporters still here, I'll add a few comments:

Modules made by X10 are very inexpensive. Their build quality reflects that fact. Higher quality X10 products are available from other manufactureres at much higher prices.

Actually, "signal suckers" are more of an issue than noise sources. Most X10 transmitters have limited power output, and their signals are easily attenuated by devices that include a capacitor directly across the powerline, such as most computers.

True, but there are plug-in versions now available that work for many people.

And 640K of RAM and a 20MB harddrive was all any computer user would ever need.

There is a signal blocker that can be installed at the distribution panel that allows you to keep all 256 codes for yourself. However, a few house codes will probably serve the needs of most users.

True again. However, X10 speed is adaquate for most home automation applications. Since our Oceltot controls virtually everthing here, the delay is transparent to us. The delay usually becomes a factor if you use X10 motion detectors to trigger lighting.

No answer back is necessary if there is communication reliablity. That is addressed by providing adaquate signal levels at all modules. You almost never ask for return receipt when you mail something. X10 can achieve the same level of communication reliability.

That is an X10 problem? They do call it a LAMP module.

Agree here.

Yes, see:

formatting link
Jeff

Reply to
Jeff Volp

| X-10s answer was the "2-way module". They are not really 2-way | since they can't acknowledge a command directly but they can be polled.

Actually, they can be configured to acknowledge a command (or any state change). I've never needed this feature because (a) I don't have the reliability problems you are worried about and (b) my use for 2-way functionality is generally to see in what state some other person/process has left the device--something that is usually best done at the moment I want the information. You might want to take a look at X10's extended command set; it is quite complete.

Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com

Reply to
Dan Lanciani

And, most of the Smarthome designed X10-compatible modules report changes and respond to Status Request with the current preset dim level, even transmitting an OFF should a bulb burn out.

Reply to
Dave Houston

So lets all beat a dead horse. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. X-10 has had its day and it is time for a more robust technology to fill the need and fix the issues I mentioned. Until we get more robust user friendly devices out there HA will be for the geeks. I would never recommend X-10 for a serious installation because of the 7 problems. Just think how users respond to Windows vs DOS and how Google has changed our lives. No way will home automation come of age until we abandon this old crap. Using signal bridges and having to add filters to TVs and not using power bars with filters that eat x-10. Need I go on. I used to sell this stuff. There is nothing modern about X-10 and justifying its continued sales is like hanging on to DOS. Oh ya..I like DOS and have one PC running

24/7 on DOS 6 oddly enough it runs an ECS based X-10 system. Very powerful in its day, 10+ years ago.

As for two-way, sorry X-10 is not. The newer modules can respond because of modern PICs and programming but the protocol underlying is the problem. In a proper communication system the network protocol must handle the error correction and acknowledgments not the application (module). Having a module respond is a Band-Aid that does not work. It clutters up the powerline with even more X-10 commands so that more collisions occur and even more commands get lost making the system less reliable. Answerback modules must be used carefully allowing a time for response. Again, not too friendly.

The TCP/IP would be great if it could be implemented over powerlines. But an even more robust protocol would be nice where any module plugged into the homes power system could be auto-detected and have a property sheet instantly available to the control software.

I have a feeling a hybrid system of some kind may be good since powerline commands can't be heard by low voltage DC devices. These could easily use a wireless protocol.

As I mentioned X-10 has been discussed. Lets talk about something new like the way Insteon works or Zwave, Zigbee, or Home PNP

Reply to
echo

To what purpose? You've demonstrated that you don't understand X-10 so it's unlikely you will understand the other technologies.

BTW, TCP/IP has been in widespread use over the powerlines for a few years now. Search Google using (HomePlug or BPL). HomePlug has a simpler Command and Control protocol that should start appearing in products soon. I suggest starting with an overview like...

formatting link
For HPCC, see..

formatting link
There are at least two other competing (can coexist, cannot interoperate) alliances pushing their own broadband powerline technologies.

formatting link
formatting link
There's no reason powerline commands cannot be heard by low voltage DC devices if they get their power from the powerline. The ESM1 X10 meter is a low voltage device that gets its power from a wall transformer. If you mean battery powered, then wireless would be necessary.

Insteon, UPB and ZWave have been discussed here for a few years. Do a little research.

Insteon is a faster, two-way PLC protocol. It uses 131.65kHz and suffers with the same noise sources and signal sinks as does X10 although the fact that each Insteon module or switch repeats the signal tends to alleviate things somewhat. It needs a phase bridge - it just uses a wireless method for this. Prices are comparable to X10 but there are, as yet, not as many devices available. User feedback has been positive.

UPB is a faster, two-way PLC protocol. PCS claims no phase bridge is needed but they are sold by all UPB suppliers none-the-less. Prices are high, variety is low. User feedback has been positive.

Z-Wave requires a minimal density of modules to assure coverage. This plus their 4 hops max limits the physical size of a network although one supplier now offers a system with 7 hops max. Lutron has a strong patent on two-way RF operated switches which is likely to further delay market acceptance and add cost (for royalties and court costs). There has been very little user feedback here.

Zigbee is not, in and of itself, a home automation protocol. There are some manufacturers supplying Zigbee based HA devices but devices from various manufacturers do not interoperate. Zigbee based devices may also run afoul of Lutron's patents (Lutron has sued Control-4). I cannot recall seeing any user feedback.

I have no idea what "Home PNP" is. Google spits up non HA related links.

There are numerous hard-wired systems available.

Clipsal C-Bus is both hard-wired and wireless and has an excellent reputation. It is starting to appear in N. America. Search on "Square-D C-Bus".

Some of these links may be outdated.

formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link

Reply to
Dave Houston

| I have no idea what "Home PNP" is. Google spits up non HA related links.

Home PnP was an additional layer of "semantics" for CEBus to allow better interoperability between vendors proposed (IIRC) about ten years ago. In conjunction with proprietary power increases in the transmitters it made CEBus what it is today, i.e., not much. In theory Home PnP was protocol- independent and I thought it somehow merged with some other specification, but I didn't keep track.

Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com

Reply to
Dan Lanciani

Thanks. Googling on "CEBus Home PNP" only turns up one relevant URL from 7 years ago. I'm not surprised that I'd never heard of it.

formatting link

Reply to
Dave Houston

Mr. Houston is wrong about this. Standard Z-Wave systems with "only" 4 hops can handle extremely large homes. If the controller is centrally located, 4 hops in every direction can cover a home that is ~200 long by ~200 feet wide. That's quite a bit larger than the average HA palace.

So far, Lutron's patent has not hindered development or market acceptance of Z-Wave in the least. It has not cost anything either. Lutron's patent is too weak to prevent anyone from placing a 2-way RF module inside a junction box. That's like saying that Victrola could keep anyone else from making a record player. They'll press their lawsuit as far as they can in hopes of maintaining their market position a little longer, but price competition as well as the fact that Z-Wave is compatible with far more systems than Lutron will doom Radio RA.

There has been plenty of negative comment from one individual who rarely mentions that he has never tried it.

Z-Wave devices from different manufacturers generally do interoperate. There are over a hundred manufacturers developing or already marketing Z-Wave compatible hardware.

or not.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>

z-wave for me, all the way. the house is 100% z-wave. Installation was a snap, Homeseer 2.0 supports is all. IHO powerline control is too noisy and too buggy (filter, etc) to be a complete home automation solution.

Reply to
mmikem32

Would you mind sharing a few details of your installation? How large is the home? How many Z-Wave devices are you currently using? How long is the longest hop?

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Wrong about what? Are you saying that Zwave networks are limitless? Re-read that paragraph. He made no mention of house size, just that there are physical parameters that define the topology and limitations of Zwave's mesh network.

That's nice if it's possible to centrally locate the controller. It's also nice if people can realize the advertised maximum RF range. I think we both know that sometimes, neither situation is possible. Dave didn't say anything about home sizes, so I don't see how you can say he's "wrong" when he points out that 4 hops defines the network range and that it apparently had to be extended to 7 hops in an "add on" to the basic protocol. That 3 hop boost could easily imply that range might well have been a problem in the real world for the basic 4 hop design.

We have a number of people that have posted here that need to control devices in outbuildings of various sorts. A 200' maximum range (that's probably under ideal circumstance may simply be inadequate for people who don't live in standard buildings. For a vendor to "break" the existing protocol to add nearly twice the hops indicates a theoretical collision with real world problems. I don't see how having a 4 hop and a 7 hop system improves interoperability between manufacturers. It seems to be the reverse. If they are just now discovering they have to nearly double the ma x hops to ensure reliable performance, this stuff's still in beta, at least IMHO.

Only a judge can meaningfully determine whether their patent is so *weak* that it is unenforceable. Patent problems can be very, very costly and the feeling was, when the case below was first filed, that MercExchange couldn't possibly prevail because "Buy It Now" was such an obvious invention:

source:

formatting link

Huh? Edison patented the phonograph on February 19, 1878 as US Patent

200,521. Victor, the makers of the Victrola, didn't begin to make their machines until after 1901. Ironically, the name Victor allegedly comes from the owner of the company finally emerging as the 'Victor' in incredibly lengthy and costly patent litigation involving others who claimed (oddly enough!) patent infringement. In any case, Victor would have no standing to prevent anyone from making a phonograph *after* someone *else's* patent had expired!

formatting link

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>

Hi Robert! The house is 2500sqft. 2 story. Z-Troller from Homeseer controls all from up stairs bedroom (office) in one corner of house. Homeseer

2=2E2.0.11. 14 Z-Wave devices (so far), dimmer, relay and a couple plugin modules. Longest hop is about 60ft. This was my first device so I know it actually went that far. Now it probably takes some hops. Average is about 15-20ft thru 1 or 2 walls. There is a device in almost every room. I also have a lot of other RF devices in the house. Wireless cameras, routers, etc. Absolutly no problems. Either with installation or with operation. I had no experience with Z-Wave before this installation. I had that first device working and setup in Homeseer in about 30 minutes. Including installing Homeseer. Any other questions? Did I leave anything out?
Reply to
mmikem32

Was this line-of-sight or through walls? What type of device - plug-in module, dimmer mounted in wall switchbox?

Reply to
Dave Houston

60ft is thru normally open door to down stairs plugin device via large vaulted ceiling and space open to down stairs. All are in wall devices except two plugin modules.
Reply to
mmikem32

So, the 60' was basically line-of-sight? Was that specific device in-wall or plug-in?

Reply to
Dave Houston

If you're the owner of this specious estate and want to walk around the perimeter of your network while using a handheld remote to control it, you'll find that you can only control 1/2 (or less) of the network from anywhere on the perimeter as signals fall off the edge of the earth after 4 hops.

Reply to
Dave Houston

I don't think they would have "broken the standard" to add three more hops if real world experience didn't reveal situations like the one you've postulated. They didn't add huge steel reinforcements to WWII Liberty ship hulls until *after* they began to crack in half and sink in seconds, in especially cold, rough weather.

Same principle applies to Zwave, from what I can see. The design theory didn't quite mesh with the real world and had to be modified to cope. It sounds, once again, that people who are early adopters are really beta testers. One would think that any transmission range issues would have surfaced somewhat earlier in a well-designed beta test and that seven hops would have been used in all the production units from the start. It seems awfully messy to decide a range boost is needed after so many four hop units have been sold to the general public.

I think it's ironic that Zwave has "scaling up" issues since it's designed to replace a technology (X-10) that has its own scaling problems. We also have very little idea of what the RF spectrum will look like in 20 years. Will RF turn out to become as problematic a transmission medium as home powerlines have become for X-10? Only time will tell. These are "must accept harmful interference" devices, aren't they?

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

mal·a·prop·ism

-noun 1. an act or habit of misusing words ridiculously, esp. by the confusion of words that are similar in sound.

I've never met anyone who asked to do that. Most people use a handheld Z-Wave remote for its intended purposes:

  1. As a setup device during configuration

  1. To control things in the room where they are standing.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

I think it was a pun as in 'specious' means false and said mansion doesn't exist and the situation described is speculative and not based on direct experience.

But getting back to the technical issues, why do you think one vendor decided they had to extend the specification to seven hops if four hops covers even mega-mansions, (whether specious, spacious, speculative or spherical?)

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

Cabling-Design.com Forums website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.