ATSC modulators

I've seen some but those were professional stuff..

I used to install camera system for a security firm and we were working with the cable company of the region (videotron) to provide the camera signal of the front door of some large apartment building (like 100 app and more) this was on channel 900 and up of the digital setup box , I remember that the transmitter was sold for more then 10.000 canadian installed..

this was used to provide a feed back of who was calling on the intercom (phone system)

"beaver" a écrit dans le message de groupe de discussion : snipped-for-privacy@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

ATSC modulator is an oxymoron. Depending on what output you use for the FIOS set-top-box (STB) either RF, component, or HDMI will decide how to inject your signals. Assuming you are going to use the RF (Coax) output of the STB you can use the same analog modulators you already own. If you use the HDMI or component outputs of the STB to the input of the TV you'll probably just need to use another component level input on the TV to see the other sources. This is especially true if the FIOS STB uses HDCP (which I wouldn't know).

I currently place video sources onto unused (analog) channels, and send that along with the incoming RF around the house.

If I were to switch to digital (ATSC), I would like to also distribute the video sources (PC, DVD, CCTV cameras, etc) onto unused ATSC channels also. This is why I seek something such as an ATSC modulator. Thus, I want any TV in the house (with a DTV set top box) be able to see the old analog sources. I know I may be able to do it with two remotes at each location, but I was exploring the ATSC modulator option.

Looks like this idea is too expensive for me to use. I will instead set up my own little cable system inside my home by using analog modulators connected to half a dozen set top boxes set to the favorite channels.

Edward Cheung

know).

ATSC uses (as you already know) digital modulation. A digital modulator is orders of magnitude more complex, and therefore probably orders of magnitude more expensive, than an analog modulator. I suspect that the only ones available at this time are professional units.

It may be that at some time in the future, a "consumer grade" ATSC modulator will be available, but I wouldn't expect it any time soon.

Also, your cable operator may not even use ATSC modulation, which (it is claimed) was chosen for its over-the-air performance. It is not the same modulation method that cable operators have been using for digital channels, and furthermore it is not even necessary in the benign environment inside a coaxial cable. I'd be surprised if your cable company was using anything other than 64-QAM or 256-QAM.

In addition to a digital modulator, you would need to have MPEG encoders for each of your local video sources, and an MPEG transport-stream multiplexer to combine them and feed them to the ATSC modulator.

Isaac

Ed, It appears that by doing that you're willing to forego the supposed benefits of the digital signal by converting it to analog but to do so you'll have to rent a cable box for each channel - which could get pricey on an annual basis. Is VZW's FIOS system the only cable TV game in town? Perhaps there is another company like Time Warner or Comcast that would let you keep everything as is at no additional cost.

beaver wrote:

Yes, you are correct, I would be going over to an analog system internally.

On the cost, I was told by the Verizon rep that converter boxes available via the coupon program at Bestbuy and other vendors are compatible with the units that they use. So I would use the three free ones Verizon gives me, plus the two I would get from the rebate coupon, plus some more that others would donate to me. I do need to buy two quad Channelplus modulators. This would get me the basic channels I want to distribute (ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, Discovery, CNN, two PBS). I might make one reachable by Infra Red relay so that its channel can be changed anywhere in the home. My PC, cameras, DVD players, etc are already modulated.

This internal cable is for small TVs throughout the house, such as in my bedrooms, baths, etc. On the quality, I don't mind the degradation. I have been using an antenna in my attic until a few months ago, and this is still better.

The alternative is to switch to Comcast, but customer service for them has been very bad in this area. Also, I just switched to Verizon FIOS two months ago, and I am not sure of my obligations.

I am still deciding, but it looks like going all-digital is out of the picture for me (ok, bad pun).

Edward Cheung

Am I missing something here? Some of the coupon-eligible set top converters have analog pass-through (which adds $15-20 to the cost). Why doesn't that solve your problem?

Yes, you are correct, I would be going over to an analog system

I live near Ed and have Comcast. They are planning to drop analog and have been quietly converting over their analog channels to digital, which means I lose about three analog channels a year. The latest went just last month, TruTV aka CourtTV bit the dust. Ed's quite right about their service. IIRC, a recent article said Comcast has a customer satisfaction rate below that of the airlines and used car salesmen. When I make the all digital switch, it won't be with Comcast. I suspect they are prolonging analog only because they know when they switch, LOTS of people will leave. I am sure they'll do it by or at the time of the big switchover so they can blame the feds, but the truth is they get a lot more out of the switchover then the average consumer because they can institute "on demand" for more programs (and $) with the increase in bandwidth.

"By DEBORAH YAO Associated Press

PHILADELPHIA ? Customer satisfaction ratings for Comcast Corp. fell this year to an all-time low and rank at the bottom of cable and satellite TV providers, according to a survey released today [5/22/08]."

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Thanks Bob, lots of great info in your post. Looks like you confirm what I suspected. It is in the cable providers best interest to terminate analog under the cover of the governments mandate of over- the-air analog termination. So eventually, COMCAST will go the way of Verizon too it appears.

Looks like your situation is similar to mine (and perhaps others). I enjoy a seamless merging of the incoming TV and in-house channels. I hate to give that up. Looks like I need to set up my own internal analog system in-house after all 8-(.

Edward Cheung

Sounds interesting. What is analog pass-through?

Edward Cheung

Analog pass-through is an old feature from VCRs. TV signals coming in on the ANTENNA coax are passed through to the RF OUT coax (which is connected to the TV antenna input on old TVs not having a composite or S-Video input). The VCR can also send its own signal on channel

3 or 4 out the RF OUT coax, and which you got depends on the TV/VCR toggle button on the remote and whether the VCR was ON. On a VCR, you could record one channel and watch a different one using the TV tuner.

For converter boxes, TV signals coming in on the ANTENNA coax are passed through to the RF OUT coax when the converter box is OFF (I'm not sure whether any of them have the equivalent of the TV/VCR button). This lets you continue to tune low-power analog stations which will NOT be going digital in Feb. 2009, or add-in signals mixed with the antenna like a video game or the output of RF modulators, without doing any cable swapping.

Here's a good explanation of analog pass-through.

And there would be revolt in the streets.

Right now that reason people are NOT up in arms over the OTA transition is that their old TV sets still work on cable (and DBS). The chances of a cable company telling all their customers that they can't use their old TVs without some box is about ZERO.

Lower tier analog channels will be with us for a LONG time to come.

It's really in our long term interests to make full use of the data pipe so bandwidth hogging analog is destined to go the way of the dinosaur and dodo. What a lot of people are finding out now, to their dismay, is something called the digital cliff. You can still see weak analog signals: they just get fuzzier and fuzzier as distance and interference increase. Digital is usually crystal clear and doesn't incrementally degrade over distance but simply drops out after a point. A recent study refuted the FCC's estimates of 60-75 miles before signal dropout and determined it was really more like

35 miles in cities as varied as St. Louis, Las Vegas and, Philly.

The figures about how many total viewers have antennas that won't be able to adequately receive digital signals are all over the map. So you had probably better do some testing with converters and antennas to see whether you're even going to get a signal. If you're going to use a roof or mast mounted antenna to feed an amplifier, you probably should be OK but I get very few OTA stations with HDTV and a small antenna mounted near the set. But of course, you know all of this . . .

I suspect that a lot of people will have to do that for now. I think that the market is large enough and the standards clear and clean enough for a commercial solution to emerge - eventually. Right now, I need some way to merge a composite video output (the RCA yellow phono plug variety) with an HDMI line. Basically, it would be a box with a male and female HDMI connector and an RCA jack. I'd splice it into the line going to the main LCD TV. Even that's a compromise, though.

Right now, I am using a Panasonic DVR that has the ability to output to HDMI and composite jacks simultaneously. That feeds an analog version (through RF modulators) to the house NTSC network. I can't overlay the picture on the big LCD, but I can use picture in picture to bring up the composite network feed. Not a good solution. It's also means that I haven't gotten rid of the old CRT's because you can no longer find 5" TV's anywhere and I use them all over the place as CCTV monitors and such. I had hoped the price on small LCD TV's would drop in proportion to the large ones, but that hasn't been my experience. The coming DTV revolution has made really small TV's nonexistent when you used to be able to buy them for $30 at Target for a 5" B&W.

I'm putting together a new PC with a digital tuner and HDMI outputs. I don't think it would take very many extra dollars for manufacturers to add an RCA input jack to a modern PC video cards if they already have the tuner and the MPEG encoders built-in. For all I know, there's already something on the market or on the drawing board because many high end video cards come with breakout cables with a host of connectors. For the moment, it's long HMDI cables and a parallel analog and digital network. I'll keep it this way until I switch to FIOS, which is scheduled to arrive in my neighborhood slightly before the DTV switchover. Then I'll see what's available on the market, HW (and check what you've done!) and then go from there. I just saw something to the effect that Sony and 6 CATV companies have entered an agreement to do away with set top boxes:

------------------------------------------------------------------ Agreement may mean end of cable set-top boxes By JOHN DUNBAR ? 1 day ago

WASHINGTON (AP) ? The set-top box, a necessary appendage for millions of cable television customers for decades, is moving toward extinction. . . . Sony Electronics Inc., and the National Cable and Telecommunications Association said Tuesday they signed an agreement that will allow viewers to rid themselves of set-top boxes, yet still receive advanced "two-way" cable services, such as pay-per-view movies. . . .cable viewers also could dispose of another remote control since they could use their TV's control rather than one tied to the set-top box. . . . The two industries have been feuding for a decade about how best to deliver cable service to customers while allowing them to buy equipment of their own choosing. More than a decade ago, Congress ordered the cable industry to allow outside electronics makers to compete for the boxes. The industry responded by developing the "cable card." . . . the source of frequent customer complaints . . . Subscribers were unable to enjoy "two-way" features such as video on demand, on-screen channel guides and cable company-provided digital video recorders. Under the new system, customers will still need to get a cable card from their provider, but the agreement means, hopefully, technical glitches will be eliminated . . . The industry hopes to head off action by the Federal Communications Commission to impose a two-way standard on the industry.

source:

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So there's an awful lot up in the air, but a lot depends on the gear you already have and its capabilities. FWIW, I used to use a notch filter and ChannelVision monitors to modulate my own gear (CCTV, DVD, etc) onto unused channel. Comcast changed the channel lineup in the upper channels (my notch filter worked from channel 80 to 100, IIRC) so often that I went to an X-10 based 8 channel video matrix switch that allows any one input to be routed to any and all 8 outputs and did a lot of the video switching at the source. Has IR and serial control as well. I am loathe to give that up for digital, so I will probably work my new system around it as much as I can and wire high rez devices like BluRay players to the big LCD TV via HDMI and to the analog network via composite analog signals.

All my big TV's have multiple composite (RCA yellow phono plug) inputs so I can always route the analog signal to the HDTV. I just have to make sure that any high rez equipment I buy has both analog and HDMI outputs. I suspect that such hybrid devices won't be around for very long, based on the PC world and transition motherboards. Remember when PC's came with ISA and PCI slots? Or when Intel and AMD CPU were pin compatible? Or when you could find both 5.25" and 3.3" diskette drives in the same machine? (-:

-- Bobby G.

I didn't say there wouldn't be a revolt, just that it's going to be mis-directed at the government while cable companies cash in on the panic. We have already seen - repeatedly - that when cable and phone companies want to raise rates, the use the "pseudo-tax" ploy and try to imply they aren't really raising rates, but simply passing along yet another government tax. They've become quite adept at blaming government for things. I don't see that changing soon.

The DTV conversion will be a golden opportunity to close out the bandwidth hogging analog channels, add more room for on demand services AND rent converter boxes to lots of people that don't need them. I don't see cable operators passing up such a fantastic profit opportunity. At least not the ones whose [lack of] ethics and [shoddy] business practices I know about! Why do they care if people need to buy new TV's to hook in? They'll just say "The FCC did this to you, call them." And then the FCC will install an inscrutable voice mail system to handle the complaints specially designed to infuriate callers so much that they hang up.

I might have agreed with you ten months ago, but I've already read posts by too many folks that say "my cable provider is going all digital." That's happening all over the place, well in advance of the conversion and guess what those providers are telling people? "We are getting ready for the big switchover that's being forced on us by Congress!"

I prefer to think it's merely because so many of them are ignorant of even the basics about CATV, DTV, OTA and the WWW. They have no idea what's coming or how it's going to affect them. I keep my analog cable bill paid three months in advance because if you get disconnected, you can only get a

*new* service contract via digital. I don't know about elsewhere, but here in Maryland they're working very hard to end analog cable. It's clear from all the service contacts I have had (I bitch about each channel they drop from analog) that Comcast wants analog dead, and the sooner, the better. They've dropped premium channels from analog to force people to switch (which is when I returned my analog converter/decoder boxes and got Netflix) and use every steering ploy imaginable to get people to switch from analog to digital.

I strongly disagree, simply because they are already doing it in my area and all over the country. Here's a message I found in the AVS forum:

"Comcast is currently scheduling the transition of all analog channels to digital format. We started the transition in late February and will continue to make the transition over the next several months. I cannot give an exact date for the transition in your area due to the scheduling is subject to change. Eventually there will no longer be analog channels at all. This is set because of the FCC regulations that state all analog signals need to be digital by the year 2010.That's a response to an e-mail I sent."

I don't know how true that post is, but I do know that around here, Comcast has been aggressively weaning people from analog. I get offers, often more than one a week, to switch to digital for nearly the same price as analog (for some tiny print short trial period, of course). And the conversion deals get better and better, too. Worse, still, every so often, they shave another channel off the lineup. They do send out a lot of digital information in the clear, but the number of unscrambled HD channels was recently dropped to about three from nearly twelve. So I won't have to rent a converter box as long as they maintain clear air QAM channels on their "basic" service. But I will be stringing a rooftop antenna for the first time in nearly 30 years just to see what I can see for free. Cable is no longer commercial free - it's just fewer commercials so OTA could become attractive again.

From a purely business standpoint, Comcast and most other cable operators don't want to support two entirely different cable plants one second longer than they have to. They don't want to have to send someone up your pole every time you change your service; they want to flip a digital switch instead. If they can blame the Congress for this switchover, they will, and they already are doing so. If you make people afraid or uncertain about something they're afraid of to begin with, there's no telling what they'll believe. Look at the Patriot Act. (-:

Comcast service techs, when explaining the drop of yet another analog channel from the lineup, told me, repeatedly, that the channel in question had gone digital and it was technically impossible to convert it back to analog. If mid-level techs can lie like that with such conviction, blaming the feds when they pull the plug on analog will be a piece of cake. Even though there appears to be a ruling mandating that cable providers continue to provide analog for three years after the switch:

Cable companies are like that silvery Terminator dude: they can break up and reform around any legal obstacle thrown at them. They are just *loving* the DTV switchover FUD. When they no longer wish to obey the FCC rule, Comcast will send its lobbyists to the hill and say: "How can Comcast fairly compete with Verizon if Comcast has to maintain analog plants and Verizon can start as all digital?" Then, the FCC will change the law to suit the pressure brought to bear on them politically. That's a well-established process.

I don't think we'll have to wait three years to see the death of analog on both OTA and CATV. What I see, instead, is another big round of acquistions, mergers and name changes with the emerging new company telling the FCC "you made a bargain with a dead man and it died with him." I've seen cable companies "bust-out" three times since I've been living here to avoid onerous contract provisions previously agreed to. Public access, as a result, has been whittled away to a toothpick. The big chorus of complaints expected by public access supporters never materialized. They'll getting away with killing analog CATV because they've already wounded it mortally.

I used to think so, but everything I read leads me to believe that's not going to be the case. The transition is already occurring and will be largely complete by that time. I just called my local Comcast at (301)

499-1980, and they told me that they will be dropping analog cable in 2009 and that I would either need a set top box or a new TV. I'm pretty sure they are either misinformed or lying, by they could be hauntingly prophetic. If you can get a better answer out of them, be my guest.

The transition "pressure" is best understood from a business perspective: Why would they ever *want* to maintain analog if they could switch people over by coercion by then? What would it cost them to give away a free set top box to convert digital to analog if they had to? $10 per line? That's the "get out of jail free card" for them in the FCC ruling: " . . .cable operators will be able to choose to either transmit the digital signal in analog format or assure that all subscribers have the equipment necessary to view the digital signal . . ." Low tier analog will be no tier analog sooner than later. The bandwidth's worth too much money to let analog eat it all up. Remember, that's a driving force behind the whole DTV switch anyway: freeing up RF bandwidth. The same resource scarcity affects CATV as well, just to a lesser degree.

So I guess we'll have to wait and see what actually happens in 2009 but I'll still continue to act as if that will be the cutoff date for my analog CATV connection. I'll mark my calendar. (-:

-- Bobby G.

FWIW, here's something I just came across today:

| FWIW, here's something I just came across today: | |

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