Wireless range help

Can anyone give me a solution to this please?

My brother in law lives about 100 metres away and I'm thinking on setting up a wireless network between us so that we can share an ADSL connection. Each PC is located at the far side of the house and I need to know if its possible to setup a network with this range without resorting to an external antenna.

Can anyone suggest a setup that can do this?

Thanks in advance Andy

I've done about 300ft with the stock rubber duckie antennas on a WAP11 and my Orinioco Silver card under ideal conditions. It was a stretch and I had to carefully select my position. There are quite a few web sites that claim 300ft as the maximum range of wi-fi (without adding antennas) but usually note that 150ft is the practical limit.

Because I interpreted that the question was what could be done without adding an EXTERNAL antenna. I presumed that an internal antenna would be acceptable. I didn't think using a reflector was a great idea as it would possibly affect his coverage inside the house. Basically, there wasn't enough information to properly answer the question, so I took my best shot at guesswork.

Good idea. Cheap, easy, and it will tell if it's possible.

Sorry, typo error. I assumed no external antennas were allowed at the client end either.

He probably just got the bill for "testing" the gain.

Sure. Now read the original question and see if your answer fits. Methinks not. I would prefer a dedicated link. Two WAP54G setup as a transparent bridge with as big an external antenna as they can afford (mostly to keep the beam narrow and therefore reduce interference problems). CAT5 to the existing access points. Leave the inside access points on the opposite sides of the house alone for inside coverage. Two WAP54G's, two 12dBi antennas, pigtails, about $250 total. Ouch.

Actually, that's boring and pedestrian. For point to point at 100 meters, methinks FSO (free space optics) is the way to go. No interference, very secure, fairly reliable, and no FCC in sight. The problem is that the demand isn't there so the prices are still rather high. Fog is also a problem. With LED's instead of lasers, eye safety is not an issue.

don't ask the price.

Nope. He said no external antennas and he want to shoot through both houses. I try to answer the question that is asked. Sometimes, I actually succeed.

I think 100 meters is well out of range for the stock antennas. Maybe 100 feet.

Why would you suggest an omni antenna for a point to point application? I would start with a reflector. It might give a clue as to whether there is a chance of success. It would be free, and should be more than 7dBi.

EZ-10 and "template 2" being the easiest.

I think you meant WUSB54G, but that's still an omni antenna, and only the client side.

A chance for someone to test that unspecified $89 widget that only one person seems to know anything about... I almost hate to post this, but it might lead to some interesting conversations. Hmmm. We were warned... Now that it says "Operations Will Begin March 21 2005", the price has gone from $89 to "$139.00 Plus 9.95 shipping." I won't bother posting the link.

How about a nice Netgear WRT54G for the WAP/router end, maybe with a panel antenna or reflector, and a Hawking HWU54D for the client, which is what I thought you meant when you said flip-up antenna. This one is directional.

Or outside, by going up and over the house. I would have expected you to suggest a panel antenna from

I have been observing this thread, hoping there would be added discussion, as I have a system configured already and wanted to stretch it. I am running all Linksys, WMP54G PCI Adapter,with a rubber duck, WRT54G Router with the high gain 7dBi antenna set. Distance between PC and router is 111', signal strength, consistently very good. Signal strength with stock antenna on router is consistently low (two bars), but remains connected with out any apparent problem. The router is connected to a Motorola cable modem. What I intend on doing is to install DirectWay dish and satellite service at a point 227' in the opposite direction, line of sight to my barn along with another WRT54G wireless router and install the high gain antennas on it.I have one of the flip up directional antennas, but was extremely dissatisfied with it because there is only 36" of cable on it. Can barely reach the table above the tower, let alone putting it in the window. One other tidbit, my PC desktop is located in my camper, the camper can also fit in the barn.

Why does internal/external make the distinction between omni and directional? A patch is fairly innocuous.

It would improve things. If the WAPs are at "the wrong ends of the house" a reflector would help the WAP coverage in that house.

I think it does. One guy has a WAP. The other wants to poach his link. A panel on the wall near the WAP, maybe cleverly relocated a little toward the target client, so the backside is still usable.

I'm guessing that he has the access point on the other side of the house for covering the inside of his house. If he changes that to a directional antenna, it might screw up the coverage inside the house. Again, this is guesswork on my part and may not be true.

I beg to differ. He said on the other side of the house. If the pattern is changed to go through the house, the coverage say 90 degrees and behind the access point will be decreased. Antennas don't create RF signals. They borrow RF from what normally radiates to the sides, back, up, down, and other undesired directions, and sends it in the desired direction.

Ok. I yield. Let the original poster describe the topology and enough of my guesswork.

8Mbit/sec ADSL sharing is going to require outside antennas. If your brother in law wants the full 8Mbits/sec delivered to his house, you'll need a wireless connection that's running at about 20-24Mbits/sec speed. That's doable as the maximum with 802.11g is 54Mbits/sec but is gonna be tough. You didn't mention anything about using the wireless for local connections so I'll assume a dedicated link. Let's play with the numbers. I'll assume a pair of WAP54G bridge radios, a 3ft coax cable pigtail, 80meters, and a symmetrical system. The goal is to get at least 20dB fade margin.

To get 8Mbits/sec thruput, with some headroom, you'll need about a

24Mbits/sec association. That gives a sensitivity of -79dBm. The following is from a DI-624 but the WAP54G should be fairly close: * 54Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -68dBm) * 48Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -68dBm) * 36Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -75dBm) * 24Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -79dBm) * 18Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -82dBm) * 12Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -84dBm) * 11Mbps CCK, 8% PER, -82dBm) * 9Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -87dBm) * 6Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -88dBm) * 5.5Mbps CCK, 8% PER, -85dBm) * 2Mbps QPSK, 8% PER, -86dBm) * 1Mbps BPSK, 8% PER, -89dBm)

Pluging the quesswork into:

TX power = +15dBm TX coax loss = 4dB (3ft LMR-240 plus a mess of connectors) TX ant gain = unknown Distance = 0.05 miles (80 meters) RX ant gain = unknown RX coax loss = 4dB (same at other end) RX sens = -79dBm (at 24Mbits/sec OFDM) Fade Margin = >20dB A bit of plugging shows that 7dBi gain antenna will work. That puts the system in the coffee can antenna, biquad, and small panel antenna class. This should be a no brainer.

Just for fun, I plugged in what I would guess would be two WAP54 or WRT54G (with alternative firmware) boxes using the stock antennas without reflectors. TX power = +15dBm TX coax loss = 1dB (two connectors) TX ant gain = 1dBi Distance = 0.05 miles (80 meters) RX ant gain = 1dBi RX coax loss = 1dB (two connectors) RX sens = -79dBm (at 24Mbits/sec OFDM) Fade Margin = unknown which yields a fade margin of 16dB. This will work, at 24Mbits/sec but just barely. However, it's close enough to the target 20dB fade margin that a pair of added reflectors such as:

certainly bring the fade margin above 20dB.

Conclusion is that it will not work with the stock antennas, but will work just fine with either added reflectors or fairly minimal external antennas.

Mistake. Please don't get an all in one conglomeration. The problem is that the modem, router and switch parts of the puzzle want to live where all the wires come together. That's usually on the floor, in a closet, in the basement, or other RF hostile location. Meanwhile, the wireless part of the puzzle wants to live as high as possible, and in clear sight of the wireless users. These requirements are mutually incompatible. Methinks it's best to get 3 seperate boxes for each of the functions. The ADSL modem can live near the phone line MPOE. The router/switch can live near where all the wires come together. The wireless can live in the window with line of sight to the brother in law. Also, if you change service, or a new wireless technology appears, you won't have to throw away the entire conglomerated box. Seperate boxes are a bit more expensive, but are far more versatile.

Also, what exactly to you mean by "external" antennas? External to the building or external to the wireless box? If you have line of sight through two windows, and there's nothing in the window to cause RF blockage such as an aluminized coating, then an 8dBi antenna of some sort can be used inside the house and through the window. No need to drill a hole in the wall and mount the antenna outside.

If the houses are that close, is it possible to run a cable between them? That will solve many of the wireless issues, insure security, and probably be cheaper. If connected between switched ports, ethernet can go officially to 100 meters of cable, and far more unofficially. I like to use RG-6/u CATV coax for my outside runs (because I have LOTS of it) with 10base2 coax to 10baseT adapters at each end. The 50/75ohm mismatch is not a problem at 100 meters of cable. I've gone about 300 meters of cable with this method. There are other tricks available using telephone cabling, fiber, FSO (free space optics), and fence wire.

Thanks for your input guys. The 2 PC's are located at the far side of each house and the phone line in is near the front of my house. It seems that an

8MB ADSL connection may be available in my area soon and my brother in law and I thought about getting it and sharing the cost. I need to know if there is a solution whereby I don't need to use any external antenna's purely because it's easier to buy and use a stock setup (wireless ADSL router and 2 wireless cards in the PC's?). I found it a little hard to find out information regarding ranges of wireless products and thought that this is probably the best place to ask.

The 2 houses are approx 60 - 80m apart (I probably over estimated at 100m in the earlier post) with line of site between them.

Andy.

One would think by placing the wireless points at the closest ends of the houses and running cat 5 back to the computers and dsl modem you stand a very good chance of success , assuming of course there is a reasonable line of sight with nothing like a house in between ?

Oh, come on. You don't need any meters these days!

Barry

Installing the flip up high gain 6dBi directional antenna on the PCI Adapter, orientated to the direction of the wireless router, having the stock antennas, a distance of some 111', resulted in signal strength indications of back to "very good" (four bars). This leads me to the conclusions that I would be able to get a usable signal strength of two bars at the 227' using the high gain antennas (7dBi) on the wireless router connected to the satellite modem located at the barn. Does any body have any suggestions as to how I could insure connection at this distance. I think if I could find a better directional antenna for the PCI adapter it would help. Directway indicated the installer of their dish and modem will be scheduling it in about a week. I already have the new WRT54G router for the barn installation. When I get converted over from cable modem at the house to satellite modem, in the barn, I'll have an extra wireless router for e-bay.