Wireless for RV campground

I need to install wireless internet access for an RV campground. The area that needs to be covered is approximately 750'x350'. This is an aerial view of the campground.

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many trees, but like I said, lots of RVs.

I work in the IT field but have no experience putting in wireless outdoors. Coverage is part of the issue.... how many WAPs or outdoor antennas to use, etc.

But as you can see from the photo, there is a paved road all through the area that I need to cover. I don't want to have to get into a situation that we have to run conduit/cabling under that road.

Internet access will originate from the clubhouse shown in the pictures. I could run an underground cable down one side of the campground, for a WAP or antenna. And then see what kind of coverage I get in the other side of the campground.

But my question is; what do I have for options, in getting the signal to the other side of the campground? Without tunneling under the paved road. I've heard of devices, for inside a house, that uses the electrical wiring to extend a wired connection. Can that be used outdoors? There's power all through the campground.

Is something like a WiFi extender a possibility for outdoor use?

Any help or input is appreciated. Thanks

Reply to
JohnB
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We (my wife and I) stay at a RV park in Silver City, NM where I do most of the work on the WIFI system. It consists of a D-Link DWL-2700AP access point mounted on a 20 foot metal pipe at the rear of the Club House. The distance to the furthermost site is probably 700 or so feet. This box is fed via cat5 cable (POE) from a 2Wire DSL modem in the club house.

The lot we were in last year is the greatest distance from the antenna. Our Toshiba laptop connected we ease (as long as we didn't have the metal window blinds closed) from inside the trailer.

We run the DWL-2700AP at about 70% power. You can just barely see the antenna (below the "b" in the Club House label. Link to the web page.

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Bob

Reply to
rmiers

didn't look at the link, but are there power/utility posts/pedastals at the various spots?

if so, consider powerline or coax networking (These are inside units, just had the link handy, but other companies make ruggedized/outdoor ones)

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unfortunately, first time you get an RF opaque RV (airstreams/silver bullets/etc are notorious for blocking wirelss signals for neighbors) your coverge plan will go to heck in a handbasket, so plan on way more coverage than you need, and multiple sources from different directions.... (marinas have a similar problem, metal hulled boats block signals real good too, and you never know what will pull into a slip search online for marina wifi planning for some good info/links)

Reply to
Peter Pan

In numbers, about 100 spaces, if I counted correctly.

One AP in the middle on a pole would probably provide coverage to all

100 spaces. Or, from looking at your arial view, a hi-gain panel antenna, mounted as high as possible, at the front of the Club House would provide a _lot_ of coverage. That would be a very good starting point.

If you start with an AP mounted at the Club House you can see how the coverage goes. Your internet connection is at the Club House & it would be quite easy to maintain with everything in one location.

Any additional pole mounted APs that might be needed (maybe 1 or 2) could be installed at the bottom of the Areal View, close to the road, so you never have to cross the road.

I would consider using a panel antenna(s) on any AP(s) installed in this manner, instead of an omni. A panel antenna will provide much greater coverage in one direction, which is what is needed when you are not at a central location.

If you find that you really need APs located at the far side of the campground, just go under the road where needed.

Possible - using powerline networking - see these threads:

getting wifi to the dead zones of a big house

How to boost our Linksys WRT150N's signal -- across the house?

One trouble with powerline networking is noise that gets onto the powerline may degrade or completely stop some devices from functioning. Since you have no control over what someone plugs into the power, it seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

The only thing I might suggest using consumer products would be a remote mounted client (receiver) directly connected to another AP - two radios at the remote location, but on different channels. The client radio has a directional antenna to the antenna at the Club House & the AP would have a panel antenna pointed to the "RVs".

Really, if multiple APs are needed, cabling them directly to the Club House would be the easiest to maintain & should be the most reliable connection you could get.

What quality of service does the client want to provide? This seems to be the real starting question as there are so many variables involved.

Professional consulting services may be able to ask the "right" questions & then provide a detailed list of options to choose from.

my 2c worth

kc

Reply to
Kim Clay

is this the area ? - or just a mailing address ?

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Reply to
ps56k

Oh man, you counted!! I recently created a website for them

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so I know from that, that you're very close. 104 sites

I talked to the campground owner and he told me that they used to have wireless in there, but got rid of it because it was unreliable and it didn't cover the entire campground. The system was installed about 5 years ago. And some of the equipment that they installed is still there. There's 2 antennas on the clubhouse that they installed. With thick coax running from them to a box mounted on the side of the building. I don't know what the different kinds of antenna's are called but, one is a flat metal panel, maybe 6"x6", mounted to a pole. They're both on the end of the building, farthest from the campground, but closest to the demark. One antenna, a 3' foot pole, is mounted in the edge of the roof, towards the top, and the other is on the edge, about half way down. So I'm guessing one is a "panel antenna", that you refer to. My concern is; is this something that I can re-use? My guess is not... since it didn't work well to begin with. And that it's older technology. .

This is the AP I'm considering:

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is that considered a panel antenna?

What I will probably do, provided the owner wants to spring for a good lightning superssion system, is run conduit/wire underground from the clubhouse, along the perimeter of the campgroud, which would be left of the clubhouse in the photo, and install a 15' pole as far as possible from the clubhouse, while being under the 100 meter max.

I agree. What they don't need is another unreliable solution.

Yup, agreed.

They got a quote from a "professional", and it was much more than they want to spend. But I really think the biggest possible problem is lightning, and what to do about it.

Thanks

Reply to
JohnB

Well that's odd. There was a good reply on here about lightning suppression, but it got deleted!!

Reply to
JohnB
[snip]

One serious possibility (don't laugh...) is to use standard, mass market, consumer items, along with a regular "surge suppressor".

It'll cost you, perhaps, one hundred fifty or so dollars and another hundred or so for enclosures.

Treat it as disposable... A nearby lightning hit might take it out every other year - which is still cheaper than "doing it right". Have a spare in the closet ready to plug in.

The commodity surge suppressor won't protect against a lightning strike a hundred feet away, but it should guard against one that hits a mile or two down the road. Remember that the latter are both far more frequent, and also weaker... (inverse square or other funky exponential stuff).

Reply to
danny burstein

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but it's currently unavailable.... what's your plan B?

Reply to
Peter Pan

20 across the top & guessed the bottom was about the same, plus 5 columns of abut 13 each = 105 - 100 for round numbers.

Before I make some comments, has anyone thought about what quality of service the customer (campground owner) wants to provide? One quality AP might handle 100 clients doing e-mail & maybe some slow web surfing but one client uploading all the pics they took for the day will stop almost everything - or someone starts sharing via bit-torrent - same thing, the whole system halts.

All my (previous) comments were made thinking about the minimum required to get coverage to the area, not at all about providing "quality" wireless to more than 5 ot 10 clients generally (at one time).

I'll leave out my comments!

Five year old equipment (not abused) may be reusable - It may be

802.11b only though as thats about the right time frame.

Sounds like LMR-400 coax - good stuff if its in good condition.

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A small panel antenna. This page will give you an idea of what is available:

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See this pdf for some dimensions:
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Close to the demark only makes it easier for the installer.

Sounds like an omni

Yup!

The omnidirectional antenna, mounted at a corner of where the coverage should be = >75% of the radiated power is going away from the desired coverage area. Then when that didn't perform well someone thought a panel antenna would work better & proceeded to install the (almost) smallest panel antenna they could find at a (seemingly) even lower position.

My idea, to even attempt _any_ coverage from the Club House, would be to get at least a 19dBi panel antenna & get it at least 20' off the ground, pointed towards the sites.

The antennas are reusable, as is the coax, but maybe not for this installation (well maybe the omni). As long as they were designed for

2.4GHz.

per the pdf:

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"Embedded 10dBi panel antenna with external connector for optional omni antenna"

I think the best one can do is to shunt lightning to ground giving it a path where it will do the least damage.

After looking at the campground layout again I would say that, at a minimum, your going to need two APs mounted in the center of the campground area. Split the long length in half & put one AP in the middle of each of the smaller squares. These would need to be mounted at least 20' off the ground.

This seems to be the very basic minimum as I see the situation.

There are probably 100-500 details associated with an install of the type! Feed the APs via fiber? Not a bad idea in a lightning prone area. All the metal in the park, when it gets full, will make wireless very difficult. When the park is full you're talking about 50 clients on each AP (assuming 2 APs, evenly distributed).

OK - On the first install, it seems they got what they paid for, but I'm kinda guessing :)

The biggest problem is what does the customer want. The owner of the campgroung. What quality of service does he want to provide? Who is going to maintain the install? What happens when one client hogs all the bandwidth with bit-torrent? What sort of backhaul is going to provide the bandwidth.

The campgroung owner probably doesn't know what he really wants. He just wants to provide wireless & be done with the situation.

Here are a couple of suppliers I know of. I've never worked with any of them, but others have used their products & they are at least OK (or so I hear): Perhaps snoop around on their sites & read their information. When you have some idea of your needs I'm sure a sales rep would direct to to the type of product that would do what you ask for - well I hope so!

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Good luck :) kc

its late, i'm tired

Reply to
Kim Clay

Obviously.... I could buy it from someone that does have it in stock.

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Reply to
JohnB

Politics: You have a fairly large undertaking and I think that it would be best right off to define what success is and how you will deal with the public end of things.

I'd come in and say "just like distance to the bathrooms or good shade or views, some spots are going to be better than others for wifi and guests will have to accept and sort that out by arrival and their own priorities. Also, the biggest problem is that RVs are shields for WIFI.

I'd specify any solution for the owners as aiming for 75-90% coverage or somesuch and anyway that's still dependent on RV orientation and individual client positions and solutions. People may expect to sit outside behind their RV (in relation the antennas) and do their email

- it won't work. Place a laptop in a window facing the antenna and it might work. More saavy travelers will have their own client adapters already for mounting in a window or on the roof.

It might be a good idea to offer a sheltered hotspot with good coverage for those who can't make it work in their space. You might make up a brochure that shows the antenna locations and the coverage and RV issues (metal shielding) as well as suggesting the hotspot as an alternative. Could also offer a cheap USB (with 15' extension) or alternative client device (powerline?) that could be bought or rented while at the RV park and placed according to general instructions.

Coverage: Your existing gear sounds usable, but I'd be selective. One idea might be to use the main router (pro quality or else consumer running alternative firmware?) to feed that panel antenna on the (likely) LMR

400 cable you already have. Get the beam pattern for it and do some tests with it mounted at the clubhouse. Point it differently, from same and try different mounting locations all over by moving the router around with it for testing. Of course you will have to get a cable (possibly powerline adapter)to any other AP locations as you are alredy well aware. That would limit my testing to certain areas.

After testing decide where the panel will do it's job well and you have a start.

For additional antennas, probably go with the directional outdoor APs that are already being suggested. The Ubiquiti Nanostation2 looks like a good inexpensive candidate that would allow you to place several while staying on budget.

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but I'm biased towards that product line lately (still haven't used one- I'm waiting for some LoCos to ship).

Anyway, use those Outdoor APs perhaps in router mode for running subnets. That way you can use your main router for perhaps 20-50 clients including one or more outdoor APs. The APs could then handle

20-50 clients each on subnets?

As always, I look forward to hearing what Jeff has to say about this, especially handing possibly 75 clients at any given time and using subnets...

Cheers, Steve

Reply to
seaweedsl

I'm curious, not an in stock/out of stock question.... That one is 600 mw, twice the legal max (here in the us) who sell's a 600 mw unit legally? That one has/had twice the power (600mw vs 300 mw) of others, and that will effect your range calculations.... (it's in the name of it on that page Engenius EOC-2610 AccessPoint - 802.11b / g, 600 mW power, PoE Compliant)

so again, I wonder, where are you gonna find a unit that is legal in its power output, and what happens when it (or any other 600 mW unit) dies? Will you be able to get a replacement other one that has as much power as that, so you can use the antennas etc you already have, or do you want to do coverage/range tests/stats with a legal/300 mW unit instead?

JohnB wrote:

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Reply to
Peter Pan

Must be the "offseason".

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Reply to
JohnB

Hmmm... I didn't know that it exceeded the U.S. limit. I don't even know what that limit is.

I found out today that the campground has coax cable TV at every site. I've got to look into using that infrastructure as an option.

Based on my concerns and everyone's comments here, the big issue is not just lighting but, coverage. And the campground owner is against digging under the campground roads. I liked the idea of putting an AP on a pole, as far from the clubhouse as possible, while not going under a road. And running fiber to it will prevent the need for lightning suppression at the clubhouse, which there is none. And I don't think the owner wants to invest in that. Which just leaves, the need for lightning suppression at the pole for the AP.... simplifies and lowers the cost for such suppression. But... if that AP isn't enough, for coverage... what next. How do I stay within the 100 meter limit, and also, not have to dig under a road. That's a big obstacle to overcome.

I think it was you that gave a link to these devices:

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campers are already accustom to running a cable out their RV for their TV.... I'm wondering if there's a way to give them an RJ45 jack at each site, after utilizing the coax TV wiring and putting high speed internet over that. With all those metal RV's in there, having a wired connection would be much more reliable than a wireless connection to the internet.

Anyone have any experience with the device in that link?

A Google aerial view of the campground. To the right of the campground is an RV dealership. The campground consists of the 5 vertical (on the map) roads, and the adjoining circle. The existing wireless antennas are on the far right end of the clubhouse, at the bottom right-hand corner of the park. Far from the back corner of the RV lot.

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Reply to
JohnB

It doesn't, the limit is 1 Watt depending on the antenna and purpose.

(3) For systems using digital modulation in the 902?928 MHz, 2400?2483.5 MHz, and 5725?5850 MHz bands: 1 Watt. As an alternative to a peak power measurement, compliance with the one Watt limit can be based on a measurement of the maximum conducted output power. Maximum Conducted Output Power is defined as the total transmit power delivered to all antennas and antenna elements averaged across all symbols in the signaling alphabet when the transmitter is operating at its maximum power control level. Power must be summed across all antennas and antenna elements. The average must not include any time intervals during which the transmitter is off or is transmitting at a reduced power level. If multiple modes of operation are possible (e.g., alternative modulation methods), the maximum conducted output power is the highest total transmit power occurring in any mode.

The EOC complies with the rules. It has an FCC ID U2M-OC26100801 Test report:-

The test sample didn't have a level power output across the band and note the comment about the antenna.

Reply to
LR

Perhaps I should have added that if you are only using it as an AP, not for pt to pt or pt to mpt, and you wish to use the 10dB Antenna then you will need to tweak the transmit power so that the 1 Watt is not exceeded.

Reply to
LR

No. However a look at the wiki notes that you are allowed up to 16 devices for MOCA1.1 and the Netgear item allows either 8 MOCA1.0 or 16 MOCA1.1 devices. I haven't seen any testing of the use of multiple channels to increase the number of devices that could be used so can't comment on that. Amplifiers are apparently a no-no unless a bypass is used.

Reply to
LR

Search Google for "ethernet over coax".

There used to be a company in Sweden called Multilet that sold ethernet over CATV coax hardware. However, their web pile appears to be gone and I suspect the compnay has disappeared.

(The DXN-221 looks like it's vaporware). Verizion FIOS uses Motoroal NIM-100 ethernet to coax bridges.

Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

us lower 48, 300, most of ak and hi 300 cept some native areas 600, euro countries, 200, others various from 0 to no limit

at any rate, can't tell from the photos, any chance of say a bathroom area, or a laundry area at the back with power and an attic?

most rv park power systems have a lightning suppression system on their PDS already, however, some sites will have 50 amp (2 hots 1 neutral) and some 30 amp (1 hot 1 neutral)... the same hot may not be used for all 30 amp... (so if you are considering powerline, make sure it's the same hot/neutral combo)

at any rate, while you may do the calcs, and coverage looks good on paper when the park is empty, murphys law says that someone will pull in and screw up your plans..... then what? The alternative i used was this in my rv (lived full time in mine for 6 years, and both used and installed wifi) had a few of these at the office for people coming in and not getting a good signal (basically a highly direction usb wifi client for the users to use in their rv's)

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just to be clear, i don't suggest powerline or coax networking for the end users, but for the installer to consider instead of running new cables, so they can have multiple ap's....

you can use a powerline network with a wap/router (i do here, use it as a bridge to another ap upstairs, and another during good weather in the gazebo outside, to increase my coverage area, so i can lay on my hammock and still surf the net :)

most of the places i installed at were combo rv parks and marinas.. The coming and going of signal blocking/reflecting rv's and boats, and how to recover/go on/plan for when things go to H, tempered a lot of my planning/decisions...

good luck, and keep worst case scenarios in mind and plan for them.....

Where does the clubhouse get it's power? Some have a PDS (Power Distribution System) for the rv sites that have suppression, and the clubhouse may get it's power from that, rather than seperate mains that don't have any.....

most rv's aren't metal (too heavy) but some are, and some have big metal reflectors in em (think they are called fridges)... powerline works very well in metal hulls/bulkheads (usually boats, they are heavy and have watertight bulkheads

Reply to
Peter Pan

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