Wireless for RV campground

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I need to install wireless internet access for an RV campground.  The
area that needs to be covered is approximately 750'x350'.
This is an aerial view of the campground.
Not many trees, but like I said, lots of RVs.

I work in the IT field but have no experience putting in wireless
Coverage is part of the issue.... how many WAPs or outdoor antennas to
use, etc.

But as you can see from the photo, there is a paved road all through
the area that I need to cover.  I don't want to have to get into a
situation that we have to run conduit/cabling under that road.

Internet access will originate from the clubhouse shown in the
pictures.  I could run an underground cable down one side of the
campground, for a WAP or antenna.  And then see what kind of coverage
I get in the other side of the campground.

But my question is; what do I have for options, in getting the signal
to the other side of the campground?  Without tunneling under the
paved road.
I've heard of devices, for inside a house, that uses the electrical
wiring to extend a wired connection.  Can that be used outdoors?
There's power all through the campground.

Is something like a WiFi extender a possibility for outdoor use?

Any help or input is appreciated.

Re: Wireless for RV campground
We (my wife and I) stay at a RV park in Silver City, NM where I do
most of the work on the WIFI system.  It consists of a D-Link
DWL-2700AP access point mounted on a 20 foot metal pipe at the rear of
the Club House.  The distance to the furthermost site is probably 700
or so feet.  This box is fed via cat5 cable (POE) from a 2Wire DSL
modem in the club house.

The lot we were in last year is the greatest distance from the
antenna.  Our Toshiba laptop connected we ease (as long as we didn't
have the metal window blinds closed) from inside the trailer.

We run the DWL-2700AP at about 70% power. You can just barely see the
antenna (below the "b" in the Club House label. Link to the web page.




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Re: Wireless for RV campground

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is this the area ? - or just a mailing address ?


Re: Wireless for RV campground
Must be the "offseason".

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Re: Wireless for RV campground
JohnB wrote:
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didn't look at the link, but are there power/utility posts/pedastals at the
various spots?

if so, consider powerline or coax networking (These are inside units, just
had the link handy, but other companies make ruggedized/outdoor ones)

unfortunately, first time you get an RF opaque RV (airstreams/silver
bullets/etc are notorious for blocking wirelss signals for neighbors) your
coverge plan will go to heck in a handbasket, so plan on way more coverage
than you need, and multiple sources from different directions....
(marinas have a similar problem, metal hulled boats block signals real good
too, and you never know what will pull into a slip search online for marina
wifi planning for some good info/links)

Re: Wireless for RV campground

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In numbers, about 100 spaces, if I counted correctly.
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One AP in the middle on a pole would probably provide coverage to all
100 spaces.
Or, from looking at your arial view, a hi-gain panel antenna, mounted
as high as possible, at the front of the Club House would provide a
_lot_ of coverage. That would be a very good starting point.
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If you start with an AP mounted at the Club House you can see how the
coverage goes. Your internet connection is at the Club House & it
would be quite easy to maintain with everything in one location.

Any additional pole mounted APs that might be needed (maybe 1 or 2)
could be installed at the bottom of the Areal View, close to the road,
so you never have to cross the road.

I would consider using a panel antenna(s) on any AP(s) installed in
this manner, instead of an omni. A panel antenna will provide much
greater coverage in one direction, which is what is needed when you
are not at a central location.
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If you find that you really need APs located at the far side of the
campground, just go under the road where needed.
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Possible - using powerline networking - see these threads:

getting wifi to the dead zones of a big house

How to boost our Linksys WRT150N's signal -- across the house?

One trouble with powerline networking is noise that gets onto the
powerline may degrade or completely stop some devices from
functioning. Since you have no control over what someone plugs into
the power, it seems like a disaster waiting to happen.
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The only thing I might suggest using consumer products would be a
remote mounted client (receiver) directly connected to another AP -
two radios at the remote location, but on different channels. The
client radio has a directional antenna to the antenna at the Club
House & the AP would have a panel antenna pointed to the "RVs".

Really, if multiple APs are needed, cabling them directly to the Club
House would be the easiest to maintain & should be the most reliable
connection you could get.
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What quality of service does the client want to provide? This seems to
be the real starting question as there are so many variables involved.

Professional consulting services may be able to ask the "right"
questions & then provide a detailed list of options to choose from.

my 2c worth


Re: Wireless for RV campground
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Oh man, you counted!!   I recently created a website for them
(www.wildfrontiercampground.com), so I know from that, that you're very
close.  104 sites

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I talked to the campground owner and he told me that they used to have
wireless in there, but got rid of it because it was unreliable and it didn't
cover the entire campground.  The system was installed about 5 years ago.
And some of the equipment that they installed is still there.  There's 2
antennas on the clubhouse that they installed.  With thick coax running from
them to a box mounted on the side of the building.  I don't know what the
different kinds of antenna's are called but, one is a flat metal panel,
maybe 6"x6", mounted to a pole.  They're both on the end of the building,
farthest from the campground, but closest to the demark.  One antenna, a 3'
foot pole, is mounted in the edge of the roof, towards the top, and the
other is on the edge, about half way down.  So I'm guessing one is a "panel
antenna", that you refer to.  My concern is; is this something that I can
re-use?  My guess is not... since it didn't work well to begin with.  And
that it's older technology.
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This is the AP I'm considering:
So is that considered a panel antenna?

What I will probably do, provided the owner wants to spring for a good
lightning superssion system, is run conduit/wire underground from the
clubhouse, along the perimeter of the campgroud, which would be left of the
clubhouse in the photo, and install a 15' pole as far as possible from the
clubhouse, while being under the 100 meter max.

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I agree.  What they don't need is another unreliable solution.

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Yup, agreed.

They got a quote from a "professional", and it was much more than they want
to spend.  But I really think the biggest possible problem is lightning, and
what to do about it.


Re: Wireless for RV campground


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One serious possibility (don't laugh...) is to use standard,
mass market, consumer items, along with a regular "surge suppressor".

It'll cost you, perhaps, one hundred fifty or so dollars and
another hundred or so for enclosures.

Treat it as disposable... A nearby lightning hit might take
it out every other year - which is still cheaper than "doing
it right". Have a spare in the closet ready to plug in.

The commodity surge suppressor won't protect against a lightning
strike a hundred feet away, but it should guard against one
that hits a mile or two down the road. Remember that the latter
are both far more frequent, and also weaker... (inverse square
or other funky exponential stuff).

Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Re: Wireless for RV campground
JohnB wrote:
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but it's currently unavailable.... what's your plan B?

Re: Wireless for RV campground
Obviously.... I could buy it from someone that does have it in stock.

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Re: Wireless for RV campground

You have a fairly large undertaking and I think that it would be best
right off to define what success is and how you will deal with the
public end of things.

I'd come in and say "just like distance to the bathrooms or good shade
or views, some spots are going to be better than others for wifi and
guests will have to accept and sort that out by arrival and their own
priorities.    Also, the biggest problem is that RVs are shields for

I'd specify any solution for the owners as aiming for 75-90% coverage
or somesuch and anyway that's still dependent on RV orientation and
individual client positions and solutions.  People may expect to sit
outside behind their RV (in relation the antennas) and do their email
- it won't work.  Place a laptop in a window facing the antenna and it
might work.    More saavy travelers will have their own client
adapters already for mounting in a window or on the roof.

It might be a good idea to offer a sheltered hotspot with good
coverage for those who can't make it work in their space.
You might make up a brochure that shows the antenna locations and the
coverage and RV issues (metal shielding) as well as suggesting the
hotspot as an alternative.
Could also offer a cheap USB (with 15' extension) or alternative
client device (powerline?)  that could be bought or rented while at
the RV park and placed according to general instructions.

Your existing gear sounds usable, but I'd be selective.  One idea
might be to use the main router (pro quality or else consumer running
alternative firmware?)  to feed that panel antenna on the (likely) LMR
400 cable you already have.   Get the beam pattern for it and do some
tests with it mounted at the clubhouse.   Point it differently, from
same and try different mounting locations all over by moving the
router around with it for testing.   Of course you will have to get a
cable (possibly powerline adapter)to any other AP locations as you are
alredy well aware.  That would limit my testing to certain areas.

After testing decide where the panel will do it's job well and you
have a start.

For additional antennas, probably go with the directional outdoor APs
that are already being suggested.  The Ubiquiti Nanostation2 looks
like a good inexpensive candidate that would allow you to place
several while staying on budget.


but I'm biased towards that product line lately (still haven't used
one- I'm waiting for some LoCos to ship).

Anyway, use those Outdoor APs perhaps in router mode for running
subnets.  That way you can use your main router for perhaps 20-50
clients including one or more outdoor APs.  The APs could then handle
20-50 clients each on subnets?

As always, I look forward to hearing what Jeff has to say about this,
especially handing possibly 75 clients at any given time and using


Re: Wireless for RV campground
I'm curious, not an in stock/out of stock question.... That one is 600 mw,
twice the legal max (here in the us) who sell's a 600 mw unit legally? That
one has/had twice the power (600mw vs 300 mw) of others, and that will
effect your range calculations.... (it's in the name of it on that page
Engenius EOC-2610 AccessPoint - 802.11b / g, 600 mW power, PoE Compliant)

so again, I wonder, where are you gonna find a unit that is legal in its
power output, and what happens when it (or any other 600 mW unit) dies? Will
you be able to get a replacement other one that has as much power as that,
so you can use the antennas etc you already have, or do you want to do
coverage/range tests/stats with a legal/300 mW unit instead?

JohnB wrote:
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Re: Wireless for RV campground
Hmmm... I didn't know that it exceeded the U.S. limit.  I don't even know
what that limit is.

I found out today that the campground has coax cable TV at every site.  I've
got to look into using that infrastructure as an option.

Based on my concerns and everyone's comments here, the big issue is not just
lighting but, coverage.  And the campground owner is against digging under
the campground roads.  I liked the idea of putting an AP on a pole, as far
from the clubhouse as possible, while not going under a road.  And running
fiber to it will prevent the need for lightning suppression at the
clubhouse, which there is none.  And I don't think the owner wants to invest
in that.  Which just leaves, the need for lightning suppression at the pole
for the AP.... simplifies and lowers the cost for such suppression.  But...
if that AP isn't enough, for coverage... what next.  How do I stay within
the 100 meter limit, and also, not have to dig under a road.  That's a big
obstacle to overcome.

I think it was you that gave a link to these devices:
If campers are already accustom to running a cable out their RV for their
TV....  I'm wondering if there's a way to give them an RJ45 jack at each
site, after utilizing the coax TV wiring and putting high speed internet
over that.  With all those metal RV's in there, having a wired connection
would be much more reliable than a wireless connection to the internet.

Anyone have any experience with the device in that link?

A Google aerial view of the campground.  To the right of the campground is
an RV dealership.  The campground consists of the 5 vertical (on the map)
roads, and the adjoining circle.  The existing wireless antennas are on the
far right end of the clubhouse, at the bottom right-hand corner of the park.
Far from the back corner of the RV lot.

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Re: Wireless for RV campground
On 23/01/2009 18:12, JohnB wrote:
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It doesn't, the limit is 1 Watt depending on the antenna and purpose.
(3) For systems using digital modulation in the 902928 MHz,
    24002483.5 MHz, and 57255850 MHz bands: 1 Watt. As an alternative
to a peak power measurement, compliance with the one Watt limit can be
    based on a measurement of the maximum conducted output power. Maximum
    Conducted Output Power is defined as the total transmit power
delivered to all antennas and antenna elements averaged across all
symbols in the signaling alphabet when the transmitter is operating at
its maximum power control level. Power must be summed across all
antennas and antenna elements. The average must not include any time
intervals during which the transmitter is off or is transmitting at a
reduced power level. If multiple modes of operation are possible (e.g.,
    alternative modulation methods), the maximum conducted output power
is the highest total transmit power occurring in any mode.

The EOC complies with the rules.
It has an FCC ID U2M-OC26100801
Test report:-
The test sample didn't have a level power output across the band and
note the comment about the antenna.

Re: Wireless for RV campground
On 23/01/2009 18:26, LR wrote:
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Perhaps I should have added that if you are only using it as an AP, not
for pt to pt or pt to mpt, and you wish to use the 10dB Antenna then you
will need to tweak the transmit power so that the 1 Watt is not exceeded.

Re: Wireless for RV campground
On 23/01/2009 18:12, John B wrote:

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No. However a look at the wiki
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_over_Coax_Alliance notes that
you are allowed up to 16 devices for MOCA1.1 and the Netgear item allows
either 8 MOCA1.0 or 16 MOCA1.1 devices. I haven't seen any testing of
the use of multiple channels to increase the number of devices that
could be used so can't comment on that. Amplifiers are apparently a
no-no unless a bypass is used.

Re: Wireless for RV campground

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Search Google for "ethernet over coax".

There used to be a company in Sweden called Multilet that sold
ethernet over CATV coax hardware.  However, their web pile appears to
be gone and I suspect the compnay has disappeared.

  (The DXN-221 looks like it's vaporware).
Verizion FIOS uses Motoroal NIM-100 ethernet to coax bridges.

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Re: Wireless for RV campground
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
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just to be clear, i don't suggest powerline or coax networking for the end
users, but for the installer to consider instead of running new cables, so
they can have multiple ap's....

I only suggested it as a way to get signal to additional ap's for install
without running new cables, not for the end users to putz with....

Heck, I don't know about your clients, but before i retired, there were
several so dumb, that they couldn't even plug in an AC plug!

Re: Wireless for RV campground
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:49:04 -0500, "Peter Pan"

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I'm on the fence.  The coax cable goes directly into the trailer
hookup.  It would be easy enough to attach yet another box to deliver
internet.  However, there's always a catch or three.  MoCA was
intentionally designed to limit the number of attached bridges to
prevent users from setting up their own cable ISP.  For the same
reason, CMTS boxes and PC based emulators are expensive and hard to
find.  However, the big problem is theft.  If you give|loan|rent yet
another box to the customer for multiplexing the CATV and
internet/ethernet, then they're going to drive away with it, destroy
it, lose it, or otherwise make life miserable for the park owner.
Unless the bridge were built into the trailer hookup, there's gonna be
trouble.  Of course, wireless doesn't have this problem, so it might
be the preferred choice.  Toss a coin.

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I've been doing this for longer than I want to admit.  I've noticed
that I can only deal with a relatively narrow range of IQ's and
abilities.  Clients that are totally clueless, generate far too much
aggravation for me to tolerate.  Clients that are power users, who
only call me when they've created the computer equivalent of the
Gordian Knot, are also time burners.  Fortunately, there are a
sufficiently large number in between these extremes to support my
decadent and lavish lifestyle.  To the best of my knowledge, all of my
clients and customers can operate an AC plug.

Hint:  If you have CATV coax, you probably also have conduit.  Run
CAT5 and be done with it.

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Re: Wireless for RV campground
JohnB wrote:
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us lower 48, 300, most of ak and hi 300 cept some native areas 600, euro
countries, 200, others various from 0 to no limit

at any rate, can't tell from the photos, any chance of say a bathroom area,
or a laundry area at the back with power and an attic?

most rv park power systems have a lightning suppression system on their PDS
already, however, some sites will have 50 amp (2 hots 1 neutral) and some 30
amp (1 hot 1 neutral)... the same hot may not be used for all 30 amp...  (so
if you are considering powerline, make sure it's the same hot/neutral combo)

at any rate, while you may do the calcs, and coverage looks good on paper
when the park is empty, murphys law says that someone will pull in and screw
up your plans..... then what? The alternative i used was this in my rv
(lived full time in mine for 6 years, and both used and installed wifi) had
a few of these at the office for people coming in and not getting a good
signal (basically a highly direction usb wifi client for the users to use in
their rv's)

just to be clear, i don't suggest powerline or coax networking for the end
users, but for the installer to consider instead of running new cables, so
they can have multiple ap's....

you can use a powerline network with a wap/router (i do here, use it as a
bridge to another ap upstairs, and another during good weather in the gazebo
outside, to increase my coverage area, so i can lay on my hammock and still
surf the net :)

most of the places i installed at were combo rv parks and marinas.. The
coming and going of signal blocking/reflecting rv's and boats, and how to
recover/go on/plan for when things go to H, tempered a lot of my

good luck, and keep worst case scenarios in mind and plan for them.....

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Where does the clubhouse get it's power? Some have a PDS (Power Distribution
System) for the rv sites that have suppression, and the clubhouse may get
it's power from that, rather than seperate mains that don't have any.....

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most rv's aren't metal (too heavy) but some are, and some have big metal
reflectors in em (think they are called fridges)... powerline works very
well in metal hulls/bulkheads (usually boats, they are heavy and have
watertight bulkheads

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