UPNP Internet Gateway keeps dropping with Belkin WiFi Router

[POSTED TO alt.internet.wireless - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

Are you running peer-to-peer filesharing (e.g., Bittorrent) with lots of connections? That may be causing your cheap router to "fall over" and die. If so, sharply reduce the number of connections.

No. I do have Skype installed but there's nothing I can do about that. The router itself isn't dying, it is just losing its UPNP Internet Gateway - but the connection to the Internet stays alive. It seems like an XP problem, as the Gateway is an XP feature.

Anyone got any other ideas? Thanks.

My my network places would stop opening. It would open once, but on subsequent tries, nothing would happen. Just an hour glass for about a half second, then nothing. I read somewhere that if you "don't show networked upnp devices" in the network tasks (on the left hand side of my network places window) , that would solve the problem of the window not opening. This cured my problem. Maybe try disabling if enabled or enable if disabled and see if it makes a difference for your problem. I've had mixed luck with MSN messenger file transfers over the years. They always start out screamin' fast but often slow to a crawl after a few seconds. That said, sometimes they work fine. Go figure.

alien

Thanks but I think we misunderstand each other. I'm talking about my Internet Gateway failing, whereas you're talking about your Network Places folder not opening. Thanks anyway!

It might seem at first that there's no correlation, but what is similar is that I too had an internet gateway device icon when I had the show upnp devices enabled. And it would disappear just like yours. I never worried about the icon not being there because my network speeds didn't seem to slow down, other than msn messenger maybe. My ReplayTVs both worked fine over the LAN, but they might not be upnp, I can't remember. Since I clicked don't show my upnp devices, everything has been running smoothly. Try it, maybe you'll like it. The icon I had only opened the config page for the router anyways. A browser window is all that's needed to get to the config page.

alien

I clicked it and a warning came up saying "This will also close the Windows Firewall ports so that the UPnP device software can no longer discover networked UPnP devices."!

That would get me no further than losing the Internet Gateway in the first place. Thanks anyway but that isn't the solution.

I found this about upnp devices. Maybe it can help you.

alien

Cheers but it seems I already have everything set the way the article describes :-S

It gets weirder. I noticed the UPnP Internet Gateway tasktray icon had disappeared again, so I opened My Network Places, and Broadband Router was still listed (so obviously still recognised as a UPnP device).

I then opened Network Connections, and the Internet Gateway icon wasn't there any more as suspected... for a second... but then it suddenly appeared, as did the tasktray icon!

By opening Network Connections I had tripped the system into reactivating the Gateway. Ideas?...

"Chris Smithers" hath wroth:

I found this note concerning disabling RIP listener service when running UPnP devices.

think this may a clue as to why the Internet Gateway is disappearing.

I have zero experience with UPnP but lots in dealing with broken RIP-1 implementations on SCO Unix. What happens is that RIP is listening for broadcasts from other RIP enabled devices. If it hears one, it merrily changes the routing table depending on the payload. The problem is that there's no integrity check, no authentication, no nothing to validate the payload or the sender. In the distant past, Windoze NT4 v3.51 servers would not mix well with SCO OSR5 Unix boxes running RIP because NT4 was belching garbage that Unix was interpreting as valid routing updates. Loss of connectivity was the inevitable result. Disabling RIP-1 was the solution.

It's also possible that your Belkin F5D7231-4 has RIP running and is transmitting RIP updates. It only takes one trashed packet and the router table on your computer will be mangled. You might want to compare the results of the: route print incantation before and after the gateway goes away. You should see a change (or garbage). As RIP updates are broadcasts, they go everywhere including via the wireless. I don't worry much about trashed packets via wired ethernet. However, it a common problem via wireless.

The disappearing icon is controlled by Internet Gateway Device Discovery Service.

's purpose in life is to snoop all over your network looking for UPnP devices worth taking over and assimilating them into the Borg er... your network. The icon is apparently part of some monitoring scheme. No clue how it works but I suspect if it loses a few packets, it's going to either complain or disappear. My guess is disappear. No clue how well it can recover. You may be experiencing excessive packet loss on your wireless (an indication of interference) which is causing the packet loss.

Also, you pronounce that you're using a "Belkin Wireless G Plus router (F5D7231-4 with latest firmware)". Please note that by being too lazy to disclose the exact version number, we have no way to verify that you really do have the latest. What's on the web pile is often NOT the latest firmware. Manufacturers release experimental versions for specific problems all the time. For Belkin, there is at least one product where what is on the distribution CDROM is later and better than what is on the web pile. Kindly disclose the version number and cease making assumptions.

My turn for a question. Why do you insist on using the UPnP Internet Gateway feature? I'm familiar with its features and functions and find no reason why you are required to do so. What do you see as a benefit? Just curious.

Hi Jeff, thanks for the ideas...

I already have RIP listener disabled so I'm guessing it's not the cause.

Thanks. Where do I find RIP in Belkin's config page (can't see it at all so assume it doesn't run it), and the 'route print' (can't see that either)?

That could be so, if I wasn't using wired to the machine in question. I only use the wireless part of the router for my Media Center Extenders and Windows Mobile device - and they all behave very nicely.

I beg your pardon? Gosh, you don't mince words do you! :-| I thought "Belkin Wireless G Plus router (F5D7231-4 with latest firmware)" was pretty informative by post posters' standards!

The firmware revision is 4.07.07 and I'm normally pretty good at hunting down the latest version hence my statement that it is the "latest firmware" (the 'latest' they 'pronounce' on their site is 4.05.03). I am however open to being proven wrong.

"insist"? "pronounce"? I never knew I did all those things! Hehe seriously though, quite simply because I need what it does. I use eDonkey, MSN Messenger, Overnet, BitTorrent, and peer-to-peer games. They all work

*much* better and faster with UPnP devices, without exception. Add to that the fact I have a UPnP capable router, and OS, and it would be stupid not to use all that technology and switch it off. It speeds up MSN file transfers by 10x for example. Brilliant.

I would rather live with having to reactivate the UPnP every 1 or 2 days, than disable it altogether because some people on the web write bad things about it.

I guess someone else has already commented on the security aspects of even turning uPnP on at all?

I was wondering that too, but assumed it had been covered earlier. The router will work just fine without it as far as I'm aware. Mark McIntyre

... then you get what you deserve :-)

I'd be fascinated to hear a technical explanation for why enabling an insecure and dangerously implemented protocol can sped up file transfers. No kidding - all the protocol does is allow apps to open and close your firewall ports themselves (including, bear in mind, apps outside your network).

*shrug*. You can lead a horse to water, I guess. :-) Mark McIntyre

"Chris Smithers" hath wroth:

I don't have an F5D7231-4 handy so I can't check. It's usually on a page with "static routes" or something similar. If you can't find the setting, then Belkin probably doesn't support RIP.

The "route print" is a Windoze command line incantation. Start -> Run -> cmd route print

If Belkin doesn't support RIP and you have it disabled in XP, then it's probably not the cause of the disappearing gateway.

Since this is a wireless internet newsgroup, I just assumed a wireless connection. A wired ethernet connection through a switched port does not produce data corruption. So much for that theory.

Assumption is the mother of all screwups. I used to be a nice person until I started trying to answer questions in newsgroups. Yeah, you're correct. I should be thankful that you supplied the maker and model number which is much more than is usuallly supplied. I just finished dealing with a friend and competitor, who absolutly insisted that his firmware was the latest (it wasn't), his Windoze was updated to the latest patches (it wasn't), his configuration was perfect (it wasn't), and that his RADIUS server was configured for the correct port number (it wasn't). Let's just say I had a morning full of assumptions.

I assume you mean the UK version. The web pile shows 4.05.03 as the latest.

appears to be the latest. OK, I'm impressed. Nicely done and I can do no better.

Well, methinks that's part of the problem. Most cheapo routers fail in some manner with common file sharing programs due to the tendency for them to open hundreds of parallel streams. The router just can't handle it. If you check the release notes on various routers, many show firmware fixes and tweaks for BitTorrent and such.

No way. To the best of my knowledge, the only thing that UPnP does is open IP ports on the router for enabling various services on the clients. There are no performance enchancements or tweaks involved in UPnP. Are you sure you're getting a performance boost? Have you run any tests or investigated what UPnP changed? How much better?

Well, I suppose there's logic in that. If it's there, it should work.

MSN Messenger uses incoming ports 6891-6900 (TCP). You could just configure your router to forward these ports to your desktop. Did you compare performance with UPnP to configure these ports versus manually forwarding them? If you really did get a 10x performance boost, I would suspect something is either broken or something odd is happening. I don't use MSN Mess for file transfers and haven't tried such benchmarking so I've never seen this effect.

Try turning off your file sharing servers for a few days and see if it magically solves the problem.

Hi Jeff, thanks for the comments.

Basically, I don't mean UPnP itself is a speed booster, but if you don't use it then programs like MSN cannot open the firewall ports themselves, and therefore the transfer speed dramatically drops due to the firewall in place. This is well documented on MS's site.

If you configure the ports to stay open 24/7 yourself, then that is a security risk.

I love UPnP as it opens ports my programs need, when they need them, lets through high-speed data, then closes them again when I'm done.

I can live with it dropping every 1 or 2 days, rather than lose that.

"Chris Smithers" hath wroth:

Could I trouble you for a reference or URL? I don't believe that the method of opening ports has any effect of file transfer speeds. Perhaps you mean the time it takes to initate a file transfer.

Incidentally, this is one recommended setup your Belkin F5D7231-4 for MSN Mess: |

UPnP. I'm not sure I like the way this was done because it leaves the voice and file transfer ports open when they should be setup with port triggering. Yech... not good.

This is the port triggering setup for a Linksys router. |

is much better because it uses port triggering, which dooes not leave the ports open all the time as in the first setup.

True. As I understand it (may be wrong), MSN Messenger leaves one or two ports open all the time when running.

So does port triggering.

Incidentally, instead of MSN Messenger, I use Gaim, Miranda IM, and Trillian.

Sorry I can't find it right now, but if you do a transfer in MSN without UPnP active, a little message pops up saying 'experiencing slow file transfers?' then takes you to a page telling you how to open ports in the firewall.

This isn't true. MS may say it, but they also said Windows 98 was a great computing platform, and that Linux wouldn't go anywhere.

Can't find any such reference I'm afraid.

Depends. Its only a risk if the server at the pointy end is vulnerable. The problem with uPnP is that it can be used to open *any* port, and you can't reasonably control what connects to them.

I really think you've been sold a pup with this high speed data idea. Mark McIntyre

All this proves is that MSN tries to use uPNP, and can detect its not active. MS then pop up a meaningless dialog box. It doesn't say you actually *are* experiencing slow file transfers.

IMHO you're being misled by the advertising. Mark McIntyre