Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac

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On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 20:17:28 -0700, AL wrote:

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I have kids in graduate school and there I see so many access points on my
Android phone (using inSSIDer or WiFi Analyzer or WiFi SNR or Fritz WLAN)
that I'm shocked how utterly filled the frequencies are.

Where "I" live, there are extremely few people on *any* frequency, so, an
old WRT54G would work just fine since nobody's router can spill onto
another house purely because of distance (although we all have rooftop
radios since that's how "we" get our Internet, and they *can* easily spill
- but they're on specific horizontal and vertical channels to match the
access point protocols).

Where these people are, it should be somewhere in between, in that any
nearby neighbor can easily step on their frequency (they're in an old
factory warehouse style building from the 1800s that was renovated into
condos probably within the past 10 years).

But, remember, the *wired* signal at the router is half the wired signal at
the modem (which is strange). The wired signal is not affected by the WiFi
bands.  

The main thing I need to ask you guys is *how* to check for WiFi
interference from the neighbors on an all-Apple household.  

On "my" iPad, I know to do this:
http://forum.music-group.com/showthread.php?6603-TIP-Choosing-the-best-WiFi-channel-using-iPad

I just tried AirPort
(https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/airport-utility/id427276530?mt=8 )

1. I already have the AirPort utility from the Appstore
2. I went to Settings and found the "AirPort Utility" on the left
3. I have version "1.3.4 (134.22)& I turned on the "WiFi Scanner" switch
4. On my desktop, I clicked on the "Airport utility" which said:
"No AirPort base stations have been found", and it also said  
"AirPort Utility will continue searching"

WORLD:
5. I tapped the "World" icon which showed 3 pieces of information:
a. Connection = connected
b. Router Address = 192.168.1.1
c. DNS Server = 192.168.1.1

INFO:
6. On the top right, I taped on the blue "Wi-Fi Scan"
7. A white form titled "All Networks" came up
8. On the white "All Networks" form I tapped the (i) on the bottom right
That summarized the 2.4GHz and 5 GHz devices as follows:
2.4GHZ - 4 Devices
a. channel 1 = 1 device
b. channel 6 = 1 device
c. channel 7 = 1 device
d. channel 11 = 1 device
5.0GHz - 1 Device
channel 156 = 1 device

WIFI SCAN:
9. I hit the "Back" & "Done" buttons on the "All Networks" form
10. That brought me to the AirPort Utility "World" screen.
11. On the top right of the "World" screen, I tapped the blue "WiFi Scan"  
12. On the top right of a white "All Networks" form, I tapped "Scan"
13. That showed me four lines for each WiFi signal it found:
a. SSID (e.g., FOOBAR_nomap)
b. BSSID (e.g., DE:AD:BE:EF:CA:FE)
c. RSSI (e.g., 36dBm)
d. Channel (e.g., 7 for 2.4GHz or channel 150 for 5GHz)

NOTE: For a description of the relative difference in signal strength, see:
http://wireless.fcc.gov/outreach/2004broadbandforum/comments/YDI_understandingdb.pdf

This works, so my only question is whether there is a better way on iOS
than AirPort, and, for the Mac, my question is whether it's better to run
this test on the Mac? (For example, maybe the Mac utility gives a graphical
display?)

Q1: Is AirPort the best WiFi Scanning freeware app for iOS?
Q2: What utility do you use on the Mac for WiFi scanning?

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 21:45:16 -0400, nospam wrote:

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Fundamentally, *that* is the question.
Specifically, *what* numerous wifi scanner app would people use in an
all-apple household.

I don't have an Apple computer so mostly I'm asking about the Apple
computer apps.  

If they had any other platform (Windows, Linux, or Android), I'd be all
over it - but I know less about Macs than anyone here.

So that's why I ask.
Just saying there are "numerous" apps tells me nothing useful.

Which of those numerous wifi scanning apps do you suggest for their laptop?
Would you suggest the Mac app that I found for their Macbook Pros?

Or is there something better for the Mac?

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I'm not so sure *where* the problem lies yet.

Comcast tested the system and while Comcast said they can't tell what speed
they're getting, they can see "all green lights" from their side.

Apparently the throttling to 25/5Mbps happens with a file that they say is
on the Docsys modem that seems to be working properly.

So, *at* the modem, they're getting what they pay for; but with the iMac
wired to the Linksys WRT54G, they're not getting half that (it fluctuates
from 12 down and 1 up to a variety of numbers in between, they tell me).

So, they are buying a Netgear Nighthawk $200 ac1900 router from Best Buys
as we speak, but I don't see how the *wired* part of the router can be the
problem since the wired speeds are slower at the router (by a lot!) than
they are at the modem.

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I don't disagree.  
They're in a state that has fewer voters than my county probably.

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They're in the store as we speak, buying the AC 1900 router but I don't see
how the router is the problem, per se, anyway - at least not for the
*wired* portion of the network.

Sure, the WRT54G is ancient - but I just looked up the specs and it's
10/100 at the four ports. I forget what 10/100 means (why not just 100?)
but I think it means that it can do 10Mbps wired or it can do 100Mbps
wired, and since the input from the modem is 29 Mbps, that's less than a
100.

Right?

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
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Bad move IMO, considering they could have gotten an Apple Airport
Extreme which is *far* easier to configure, much more secure due to its
design, updated for much longer during the life of the product, for the
same price.

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The simple explanation is the old, crusty router isn't able to keep up.  

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JR

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
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I firmly agree.  In an Apple environment it is really the best choice.  
Rock solid and simple to configure.  Mine has been sitting there for years
just working away.  I might have reset it a couple times over the years,
probably when it got an update.

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Good guess!


--  
Elfin

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
On 12 Sep 2016 21:35:59 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

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I will tell them when I call when they get back home from work.

Looking up the AirMac Extreme, it's even *less* money than what they just
paid for their ac 19000 router, but the Apple AirMac Extreme web page is
frustratingly high on marketing BS and extremely low on real details.\

I *expect* the main page to be filled with Marketing bs...
http://www.apple.com/airport-extreme/

But, when you click for "more information", you're actually supposed to get
"more information", not more of the same lack of information.

I mean, um, "With 802.11ac technology and a powerful beamforming antenna
array, AirPort Extreme gives you up to 3x faster Wi-Fi and a stronger,
clearer signal".  

Yeah. Right. They have entire pages of nothingness there.
Total BS for a technical "description" if you ask me.
http://www.apple.com/shop/product/ME918LL/A/airport-extreme

Sure, it's marketing, but it's worthless to make a real comparison
decision.

The entire web site related to the airport extreme is filled with this
marketing "nothingness", for page, after page, after page:
http://www.apple.com/compare-wifi-models/

Digging deeper for a fact, any fact, any real fact that can be used to
*compare* the price:performance with the newly bought router, I'll have to
look on a non-Apple-Marketing-written site just to get *any* real
information about the thing...
https://www.tekrevue.com/802-11ac-routers-compared-apple-belkin-netgear-linksys/
http://www.cnet.com/products/apple-airport-extreme-base-station-802-11ac/
http://www.toptenreviews.com/computers/networking/best-premium-wireless-routers/airport-extreme-review/
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/review/wifi-routers/apple-airport-extreme-80211ac-6th-generation-review-3536034/
etc.

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
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Sure you will...

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I'll save you some time. Nobody here  is interested in yet another of your
misguided and trollish spec comparisons since those of us who aren't here
purely to troll realize spec comparisons aren't the only or best method of
determining actual value.

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For someone who constantly claims he is smarter than everyone else in the
Apple news groups, you sure seem to have a hard time with basic things like
clicking the Tech Specs link on that very page:

<http://www.apple.com/airport-extreme/specs/

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E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
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JR

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
On 13 Sep 2016 00:48:56 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

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Ah, that's more like it!
http://www.apple.com/airport-extreme/specs/

Nice. That's what I was looking for.
BTW, I didn't suggest that router, someone else did.

So for you to claim that I *planned* a trollish behavior regarding that
router gives me far more credit for being clever than I can imagine you'd
give me.  

I'm smart ... but I'm not *that* smart.
In this case, I think we're pretty much done with the original question.

The original question was how to scan for WiFi on Apple equipment.
The answer is fine with me, which is:

iOS:
- Airport Utility
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/airport-utility/id427276530
- Fing

Mac:
- NetSpot: WiFi survey & wireless scanner, By Etwok LLC
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/netspot-wifi-survey-wireless/id514951692
- Wireless Diagnostics
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202663

And to check for intruders on either platform:
- Fing  
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/fing-network-scanner/id430921107

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
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Repeating a URL I already hand fed you doesn't add anything of value to
the conversation.

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You couldn't have been looking very hard since it's right at the top of
the page, titles "Tech Specs".

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I don't care; and it had zero bearing on my response to you.

--  
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
On 13 Sep 2016 04:33:54 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
  
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I never see quoted text.
So, repeating the URL helps a person reading this who is hiding quoted
text.
Most newsreaders, of course, can easily flip between hiding quoted text and
not hiding it - but I repeat as a courtesy to the reader who hides quoted
text.

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I didn't want to be mean to you since you were being nice, but you *do*
realize that the spec you gave me *is* a purely M-A-R-K-E-T-I-N-G BS spec,
and, as such, is essentially useless, right?

I mean, just *compare* the spec you gave which was a single line for *all*
frequencies and *all* countries, against the spec for "my" radio on my
roof, which lists not only the spec at *each* frequency, but also the
transmit and receive spec, and the error range.

Your purely MARKETING spec (which is almost completely useless):
- Radio output power: 32.5 dBm maximum (varies by country)

A far more useful spec that is much closer to being "real":
- https://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/rocketm/RocketM_DS.pdf

PS: They all lie. But boy oh boy, does Apple hide a *lot* more stuff than
Ubiquiti does.

What you gave is the best Apple has - but it's something nobody who really
cared about the output could actually use. Notice the difference in the
Ubiquiti spec *before* you respond.

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I never take the initiative on negativity.
I always follow *your* lead & simply respond in kind.
You should have noticed that by now.


Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac

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then your newsreader is broken

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 01:18:16 -0400, nospam wrote:

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I think my newsreaders work just like most newsreaders.

In all mine, I can hit "q" to toggle quoted text, just as I can hit "h" to
toggle the header lines.

I almost never do.

I'm sure I'm not unique in that regard.

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac


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and even getting the product name correct:
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Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 20:50:21 -0400, nospam wrote:

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Compare the quality and specificity of these Apple specs:
http://www.apple.com/airport-extreme/specs/

Against typical Ubuiquti specs for the radio that I have on my roof:
https://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/rocketm/RocketM_DS.pdf

This is the Apple spec:
Radio output power: 32.5 dBm maximum (varies by country)

This is the Ubiquit spec for "my" radio:
Operating FrequencyWorldwide: 5170 - 5875 MHz
USA: 5725 - 5850 MHz*
Output Power27 dBm
TX Power Specifications
RX Power Specifications
ModulationData RateAvg. TXToleranceModulationData RateSensitivityTolerance


























Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
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Must be his pathetic aversion to the "evil M.A.R.K.E.T.I.N.G names"...

--  
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
On 13 Sep 2016 02:07:38 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

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The nice thing in those specs is that it lists the "Radio Output Power" at  
- Radio output power: 32.5 dBm maximum (varies by country)

Hmmm... is thtat EIRP?
Or is that just the radio sans antenna?

It doesn't say - but it's so high that it's probably EIRP.

Most home router antennas, AFAICR, are about 18dBi, so 32.5dBm seems pretty
high (yeah, I know one is isotropic and the other is compared against 50mW
but those are the figures that I have).

The maximum antenna and radio power and EIRP are listed here:
http://www.air802.com/fcc-rules-and-regulations.html

But, as noted, it varies by country:
https://w.wol.ph/2015/08/28/maximum-wifi-transmission-power-country/

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
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Yep.  

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Nope, its never that.  
  
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Nope, it will be with the antenna(s) it has.  
  
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Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:20:05 +1000, Rod Speed wrote:

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Thanks. I was being nice to JR because he was nice enough to show me the
specs.

I *always* respond in kind.

Thanks for clarifying the spec was a maximum EIRP.

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac

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do a search on the app store or use google.

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you don't need an apple computer to find such an app.

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you know less about a *lot* of stuff than anyone here.

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it tells you to search.

you do know how to search, do you not?

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i don't suggest any, since the problem is almost certainly the linksys
wrt54g.

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i am.


they were looking at the traffic light outside their office.

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then it's the linksys.

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the linksys can't handle broadband speeds.  

it was a cool router in its day, but not anymore.

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the number of voters isn't the issue.

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the ports aren't the issue, it's how much throughput it can manage over
wifi or wan-lan if it's used as a router.

the wrt54g hails from an era when 1.5mbit was 'fast'. today, 25-50 is
common and gigabit is 'fast'.

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:26:14 -0400, nospam wrote:

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Nevermind.  

As you can tell from the OP, I already ran a search.  

In another thread, we discuss why simply spitting out search results is not
only nearly worthless, but often it's less useful than worthless.

As we've said, the cost in freeware is in *TESTING* each one and finding
the one that actually works well. Since Jolly Roger should know, I have
already suggested the app *he* suggested for these people to use on their
Macs.  

I have no way of testing them, unless I try it on the library computer but
I suspect the library won't let me install it.

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As you can tell from the OP, I already ran a search.  

In another thread, we discuss why simply spitting out search results is not
only nearly worthless, but often it's less useful than worthless.

For example, I could have spit out this review:
7 free Wi-Fi stumbling and surveying tools for Windows and Mac
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2925081/wi-fi/7-free-wi-fi-stumbling-and-surveying-tools-for-windows-and-mac.html

But that review includes a Mac app that doesn't seem to exist, and, it
doesn't include the Mac app that Jolly Roger kindly suggested.

In the end, only a user who has *used the apps* would know which ones are
good or bad, as reviews almost invariably are wrong in that they test the
wrong things or they are fronts for software sales.

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I know absolutely nothing about Mac computers, so, that's why I asked.
The article I referenced above suggests 5 Windows and 2 Mac tools:
a. Acrylic WiFi (Windows)
b. AirGrab WiFi Radar (Mac OS X)
c. Cain & Abel (Windows)\
d. Homedale (Windows)
e. LizardSystems Wi-Fi Scanner (Windows)
f. WirelessNetView (Windows)
g. Wireless Diagnostics (Mac OS X Lion and later)

But, only one of the Mac tools seems to actually exist.
And it's not the tool that Jolly Roger kindly suggested, so, it's probably
not as good as the one that Jolly Roger suggested.
- NetSpot: WiFi survey & wireless scanner, By Etwok LLC

So it seems the two Mac WiFi scanning freeware tools to test are:
1. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/netspot-wifi-survey-wireless/id514951692
2. (The airgrab site seems to be for sale)
3. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202663

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As you can tell from the OP, I already ran a search.  

In another thread, we discuss why simply spitting out search results is not
only nearly worthless, but often it's less useful than worthless.

If you don't know the answer, you don't have to answer the question.

Luckily, Jolly Roger kindly supplied an answer of value which I provided to
the all-Apple household to test out when they get home from work.

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It might be, but, *wired* the signal *should* be the same (essentially) at
the modem as it is at the router. That it's apparently *half* at the router
is odd, since this is a wired connection where the router spec is 10/100 so
25Mbps should be within the 100 Mbps spec.

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The good news is that they called me and told me they picked up the Netgear
ac1900 for about $200 at Best Buys, so tonight they will set it up and that
will tell them whether it was the linksys router or not.

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Heh heh ... they said it was 'all green' on their side.
The iMac hooked to the modem *did* show above 25/5 Mbps so, it doesn't seem
to be Comcast's problem (aka Xfinity).

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We'll find out tonight when they hook up the new router.

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I agree with you that the WRT54G was "the" router to get in the olden days.
I don't know what you mean by "broadband" speeds, in that they get 25/5
from Comcast and the router spec, wired, is 10/100 which is well within the
25 Mbps speed.

Likewise, the wifi on the Linksys WRT54G is apparengly 54Mbps, which is
also well within their input speeds of 25/5 Mbps.

So, the router *should* handle the speeds (AFAIK).
What the router can't do is give them an empty frequency for their WiFi.

That's why I'm asking about WiFi scanners.
They need to be on an unused frequency.

That should be less of a problem if they're on 5GHz than on 2.4 GHz.  
Btw, do all the iMacs and Macbook Pros have 5GHz?

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Well, what I meant is that Comcast is a monopoly that is regulated by the
voters, who have a say in what price they charge.

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I don't disagree with most of your words, but maybe I don't understand what
it means that the WRT54G is 54Mbps wireless and 10/100 wired?

To me, 54Mbps wireless is double what their modem is giving them, so,
unless something else is interfering with their wifi signal, 54Mbps should
be well within the capabilities of the router.  

Likewise, 10/100 means it can handle 100 Mbps (AFAIK - I'm not sure why the
10 is there since the 100 overrules it). If that's correct, then wired, the
router can handle 100Mbps and they're only getting 25 Mpbs at best.  

So, looking at specs, I don't see that the Linksys can't handle the
throughput.

However, I do see that the Linksys WRT54G is using "g" and not "n" or "ac"
so *that* will limit their speeds, and, in addition, it's stuck on 11
channels, so, if there is interference on their channel, that will also
slow them down.

But their *wired* speeds are half at the router than at the modem, so,
something funny is going on - so they need tools to debug that work on iOS
or on Mac.  

That's all I'm asking for.

Re: Scanning for WiFI like inSSIDer on iOS & Macbook Pro & iMac

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if they're getting 25/5 at the comcast modem, then the problem is not
comcast.

the bottleneck is within the house, namely the linksys.

it's really very simple.

unless there's more to the story that you haven't disclosed.




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that's the port speed, not the router throughput.

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802.11g is 54mbps, but actual throughput is roughly half, about 25 mbit
or so, and that's *maximum*. in the real world, it will be less.

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it doesn't an empty one, it only needs one that doesn't have much
interference.

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if it's about 8 years old or less it should.  

option-click the wifi icon in the menubar for lots of geek info.  

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the voters have no say whatsoever what comcast does.

comcast does what it does because it can. they're almost always the
only game in town, so they can charge pretty much whatever they want
and you have to suck it up.  

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one is wireless and the other is wired. duh.

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the ports are 100bt, but that doesn't mean the electronics inside
support those speeds.

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