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Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On 10/14/19 9:34 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:
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This is a written medium.
If you can't be bothered to be concise and accurately convey an
idea, what makes you think we want to waste our time figuring out
what you meant.


--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
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On 10/14/19 7:34 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:


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y
<snip>

It's not quibbling to point out stuff that's patently incorrect.  It
doesn't do someone following the post any favors to let incorrect terms
slip by.  Microwave transceivers of the type we are discussing have
outputs measured in dBm, not dB. The m is an important qualifier. It
gives the goddamn baseline reference. 20 db means nothing. 20dbm means a
whole lot. How can someone know how to convert 20 dbm to milliwatts if
nobody gives the milliwatt reference?

It's also fairly obvious that someone is lacking in skill when they get
the terminology wrong.  Would you trust a doctor that used the wrong
terms? I'd be highly suspicious of their training and I sure as hell
wouldn't let someone operate on me who kept referring to my tibia as a
cranium or something :)

You're passing yourself off as some sort of expert, from what I have
read of your posts, but I have serious reservations about taking you
seriously if you don't even know the lingua fraca of the industry.

I've been in this business, professionally, for almost a decade. I'd
barely rate myself as an expert (maybe more of a really skilled
journeyman).  There's plenty of folks in this newsgroup who know a
shit-ton more than I, and they don't get the terms wrong, which is just
one minor indication they have a basic understanding of what they're
talking about. The information they contribute pads out the rest, but
they start with the basics and get them correct.






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Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 02:28:27 -0700, Johann Beretta wrote:
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Hi Johann Beretta,

Johann, let's be realistic since we must assume "adults" live here.
 <http://tinyurl.com/alt-home-repair
 <http://tinyurl.com/alt-internet-wireless
 <http://tinyurl.com/sci-electronics-repair

Let's take advantage of your skills to FURTHER our capabilities!
o What would you suggest for a home computer to extend the wifi range?

Let's assume you only want to go another hundred yards (meters) or so.
o Or, maybe, you want the computer to connect to an AP only a mile away

What would you suggest to extend the Wi-Fi range of, oh, a typical desktop
or laptop, to a hundred meters (or to a mile, kilometer) further from where
it is currently maxing out?

Using your knowledge and intellect, Johann, what can you offer the team, by
way of ADDED ADULT TECHNICAL VALUE that furthers their ability to connect
to access points that they can't currently connect to, today?

If I'm using "decibels", and if someone on those three ngs doesn't know
what they mean, and if they're older than, oh, say, fifth grade, then there
is no hope for them anyway.

Seriously.
o What are they doing posting their drivel about decibels on those ngs, if
they're that ignorant of even the most basic of electronic terms.

They should just shut up if
(a) they don't care to have this kind of power at home
(b) they're so ignorant that the only thing they can find are typos
(c) all they do (endlessly, day in and day out), is troll  
etc.

If they quibble about a misplaced "i" versus the "m", there's no hope for
them to ever add any adult value to any topic on this newsgroup, Johann.

Seriously.
o Only a moron would be confused by "decibel" in place of "dBm" or "dBi".

It's like quibbling over "yards" and "meters" when it doesn't matter.

A moron can't possibly add value
o And certainly not by playing silly games around "radio" or "decibel".

You do NOT seem to be a moron - so why don't you use your intellect to ADD
VALUE to the conversation, so that OTHERS can do what you and I can do.

What can we do, Johann?
o We can connect WiFi to access points that are much farther away
o With that, we can connect Ethernet to those distant access points
o For about the costs as people are paying today
o If they just knew how.

Specifically:
o If they knew what the potential distances might be (if they need them)
o And, if they knew what equipment to buy to get those distances
o Where this equipment is not likely to be found in local box stores.

I consider that knowledge good added value.
o If you don't consider that knowledge added value, then say so.

But please don't play childish games around typos & common terms.

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I repeat that you seem to be the only one here who knows anything,  
so I just want to ask you to ADD ON-TOPIC ADULT VALUE where you can.

If you find a "real" mistake, then, by all means, state your claim.
o I'm not afraid of facts because facts form the basis of my beliefs

However, don't play silly childish games around the use of the word "radio"
or "decibel" or "antenna" or "aerial", etc., since everyone KNOWS what we
mean when we talk colloquially about this stuff.

If they don't know, then they're simply too ignorant to educate anyway.
o I ask those morons to stop wasting our time on childish semantic drivel

Bear in mind I set up WISP, along with my neighbors, for about 100 homes,
where, trust me, here in the mountains above Silicon Valley, we're _all_
extremely well educated ... and where the fact is, NOBODY plays silly games
around decibels and the like. We don't even say the "negative", since we
KNOW that it's always going to be negative for example.

Only here, on Usenet, filled to the brim with poorly educated children, do
they incessantly quibble about silly stupid semantic games (including
thinkos and typos like accidentally switching the 'i' and 'm', when it
doesn't matter in the conversation since only a fool would be confused.

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Stop it Johann.

Just stop.

Playing silly games isn't going to help anyone.

Be an adult.

I can tell you know more than almost anyone who posted to date, Johann.
o Don't waste that knowledge on silly childish games Johann.

Try to use your knowledge to further what people here can do, Johann.

There are rarely people on this ng who know anything Johann, where you, and
people like Jeff Liebermann for example, can easily add more value than I
can.

But you're not going to add value by playing silly semantic games.
o It's like arguing that a tire isn't a wheel when someone says
o "How can I balance my tires at home?"

It's childish.  

But worse - it's a complete waste of your otherwise appreciable skills.
o It's like quibbling over yards and meters, when it doesn't matter.

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See above.  
o Everyone knows all this.

If, on a rooftop, I ask someone to "help me aim this antenna, will ya?"
I don't expect endless quibbling about antennas having a radio attached.

Everyone knows this stuff.
o Our goal, Johann, is to help them understand the stuff they don't know.

Which, as I see it for this thread:
o The distance that people have reported to connect to WiFi APs
o The ability to do that with any computer that has an Ethernet port
o Using equipment that costs about as much as what they're paying today
o But which is not sold in the typical consumer box stores they frequent

If you think the "added value" of this thread is to explain the difference
between a "decibel" and a "dBm", then, by all means, start your lecture.

But don't position that lecture as a "correction", since everyone _knows_
what the distinction is in colloquial speech, Johann. Everyone.

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Aurgh. You insist on adding _negative_ value, when you can simply add
positive value by suggesting even _better_ ways to get WiFi distance at
home.

This is the datasheet for one of my radios, Johann:
<https://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/rocketm/RocketM_DS.pdf
Do you see the letters "dbi" _anywhere_ in that spec sheet, Johann?
o There are lots of "dbm" but no "dbi", Johann.

This is the datasheet for one of my antennas, Johann:
<https://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/rocketdish/rd_ds_web.pdf
Do you see the letters "dbm" _anywhere_ in that spec sheet, Johann?
o There are lots of "dbi" but no "dbm", Johann.

Do you think, even for a moment, that I don't know why, Johann?
o Let's stop this silly game playing, Johann

If you want to start a lecture on the distinction between a decibel and a
dBi and a dBm, then, by all means, start your lecture.

But do not position it as a "correction", since I said, from the start, I'm
using colloquial terms - and - I told you - in this post - that we are all
very well educated in this stuff Johann - so you should use your
appreciable education to further our knowledge.

Using your knowledge and intellect, Johann, what can you offer the team, by
way of ADDED ADULT TECHNICAL VALUE that furthers their ability to connect
to access points that they can't currently connect to, today?

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Jesus Christ, Johann. Stop playing silly games.
o It's like quibbling over tires and wheels when it doesn't matter.

I'm asking others how far they connect via WiFi, and we received GOOD
answers from those others (one was up to 12 kilometers (7 miles), where, I
think you're smart enough to know that double that distance is possible
with this equipment we've been discussing (at both ends, of course).

If the equipment is only at one end, then it's drastically limited by the
weaker equipment, of course, but long distances are still possible.

One part of this thread's goal is to let the "adults" on this newsgroup
realize how far they can connect WiFi at the same costs as they pay now for
equipment.

For example, it amazes me that people buy "repeaters" in the local box
stores, when, for about the same price, they can buy this Mikrotik or
Ubiquiti equipment that gives them from ten times to a hundred times more
power (and hence, correspondingly, more distance).

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Ah. I knew you had more knowledge than anyone yet, who has posted!

Good. I like smart people. I can learn from smart people.

Let's spend our energies on ADVANCING our knowledge, instead of playing
silly little semantic games. Shall we?

What would you suggest to the users here, for example, if they needed to
extend their WiFi range of their desktop computer, to, oh, let's say, 100
yards (100 meters)?

HINT: Do not quibble that a yard and a meter are not exactly equivalent!

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I could INSTANTLY tell, from your post, that you knew more than anyone else
who has posted yet, simply based on the astute observations you made.

Let's take advantage of your skills to FURTHER our capabilities!
o What would you suggest for a home computer to extend the wifi range?

Let's assume you only want to go another hundred yards (meters) or so.
o Or, maybe, you want the computer to connect to an AP only a mile away

What would you suggest to extend the Wi-Fi range of, oh, a typical desktop
or laptop, to a hundred meters (or to a mile, kilometer) further from where
it is currently maxing out?

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Let's take advantage of that adult technical value, if it exists, Johann.
o What would they suggest for a home computer to extend the wifi range?

Let's assume we only want to go another hundred yards (meters) or so.
o Or, maybe, we want the computer to connect to an AP only a mile away

What would you (or they) suggest to extend the Wi-Fi range of, oh, a
typical desktop or laptop PC, to a hundred meters (or to a mile, kilometer)
further from where it is currently maxing out?

Silence?

--  
When people stop playing childish games, they can focus on adding value.

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On 10/15/2019 11:09 AM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:
...

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...

?When I use a word,? Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ?it  
means just what I choose it to mean?neither more nor less.?

--  


Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 16:25:00 -0400, Paul wrote:

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Hi Paul,

You're generally purposefully helpful, as am I, where both of us like to  
help people do what we can do (it's why I've written so many tutorials on
Usenet, for example), and, where we both learn from others who share their
knowledge, in that process.

Hence, I'm happy to answer all your questions (if I can).
o I always mirror the implied intent of every post (by strategic design).

You picked out a low power but conveniently small 1-piece contraption.
  <https://i.postimg.cc/CLBXc080/antenna03.jpg

I looked but it doesn't actually say on the outside the model, where it's  
been so long that I've had it that I forgot exactly what it is (and I don't  
want to log in as I'd have to connect it directly to a laptop, etc.), and  
there are so many different PowerBeam models anyway ... but it's likely a  
powerbeam PBE-M5-400 (or similar) where we can look at the specs here:  
<https://dl.ubnt.com/qsg/PBE-M5-400/PBE-M5-400_EN.html

Which shows that nice little $100 5GHz unit to be about 26 dBm transmit  
power plus about 25 dBi antenna gain, for an EIRP of about 51 decibels,  
which isn't too bad for less than a hundred bucks.
 <https://www.ispsupplies.com/Ubiquiti-PBE-M5-400

Bear in mind a "typical" SOHO router for about the same price, is, oh, I  
don't know, something like 20 decibels if you're lucky (if I'm wrong, it's  
OK to ream me with facts).

Think about the HUGE difference in power, where each set of 10 decibels is  
ten times the power, so 51 - 20 is about 30 decibels different, where  
that's 10 x 10 x 10 is about one thousand times the power of that typical  
SOHO router ... at about the same price.

BTW, those numbers seem kind of high to me - but I took 'em out of that  
spec sheet - where I always expect the power to be an order of magnitude or  
even two orders of magnitude better than your typical SOHO router - but not  
three orders of magnitude.

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There are lots of similar one-piece models, where this one inside contains:
o CPU Atheros MIPS 74 Kc, 560 MHz, 64 MB DDR2, 8 MB flash
o Network 1 x 10/100/1000 Ethernet port, 5725 to 5850 MHz, 150+Mbs
<https://www.ui.com/airmax/powerbeam/

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Nobody breaks the rules with these things, for a whole bunch of reasons.
I could list the reasons, but they're all good reasons, so I won't bother.

You just power them up, and set them up like you do any router today.
o Set them up as an access point (e.g., to paint the pool), or,  
o Set them up as your computer network interface (I do both).
  <https://i.postimg.cc/6QJqK6Cj/desktop02.jpg

That's kind of the point of this thread, which is to let people know that  
this kind of power (many times what they have today for sure) is available  
to them, if they need it, at about the same price they paid for their  
existing stuff.

You just have to know what to buy - and where to buy it:
<https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-PBE-M5-400-2-pack-PowerBeam-AirMAX/dp/B00UZ03UUW

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Actually, that's just marketing.
 <https://www.ui.com/airmax/powerbeam/

What's nice about these units is that they're really small, light,  
easy to install, nothing to connect (it just snaps together), etc.

And, of course, if those specs are right, you get up to a thousand times  
the power of your typical repeater you buy in the box store, for just about  
the same price (about $100).

Let me know if you have other questions.  
o The really powerful stuff on my shelf are the rockets, by the way.
  <https://i.postimg.cc/XJChDCPr/spare-access-points.jpg

Note: It's a pleasure to move forward, technically, instead of having to
deal with explaining that a decibel is a decibel and that a radio is a
radio, and that an antenna is an antenna, etc, since that's just a waste of
everyone's time (as only those who can't contribute any adult value
whatsoever always seem to be the ones who complain about that silly stuff).

--  
The main point is that all this power is available to all of us, at the  
same cost as what we've been using up until now - where - to get this power  
- you simply need to know what to buy (the setup is trivial).

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
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On 10/14/19 7:05 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

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0
ch is
ver

You are in violation of federal law.  The MAXIMUM permissible antenna
gain, in the 2.4 GHz spectrum, with a 27 dBm transmitter is 9 dBi.

Of course it's more powerful than anything anybody has experienced. It's
illegal.

Are you actually advocating for this?

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Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
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On 10/14/19 7:05 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

<snip>

I am fairly curious as to why you have not addressed the point that I
have made a couple of times where it's trivial to put a PowerBeam (for
example) into a configuration that violates FCC transmit limits.

I apologize if I simply missed it. But in the event I did not, why have
you not addressed this?

In the event you did not see it, are you aware that using a PowerBeam M5
400 (as an example) with "Feed Only" on the wireless tab but, in
reality, having the feedhorn inside the 400mm dish, and the transmit
power set to maximum, will violate FCC transmit limits for the 5 GHz band=
?


Do you concede that Ubiquiti has made it trivial to violate transmit
limits by allowing a user to uncheck the "calculate EIRP limits" box in
the configuration?

Mind you, I'm not advocating these options go away as I can think of a
few situations where they could be handy (and legal) to have?
Specifically it is possible to build a custom dish for the transmitter
that would fall somewhere in between the two options (Feedhorn only &
400mm dish) that would be, at worst, a gray area.

Furthermore, not only can one violate limits, but one can do so well
inside the DFS bands. Do you concede that this presents a real public
safety problem if such a configuration is done near an airport using
TDWR radar? (yes I know the word radar is redundant here, but I use it
for clarification for lay persons)


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Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 08:17:43 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hi Cindy Hamilton,

Yes you do.
o Everyone has it.

Let's say, for example, you can "see" your friend, who is, oh, say, a dozen
kilometers away from you line of sight, similar to what Ammammata posted:  

 On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 09:32:21 +0200, Ammammata wrote:
 >>at home, the ISP antenna is about 12 km away from home
 >>max current speed in download is about 30Mb

Guess what?

If you and your friend buy two "antennas" (as explained)
o You can connect to each others' access points (a dozen miles away)

Since there is always another access point you might want to connec to
o All you need is the equipment (which is inexensive) & the know how

It's the know how which is expensive ... where this post to JP Gilliver
explains some of the advantages you can obtain with that know how...

 On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:15:04 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
 > in this case all the 'groups seem relevant to a discussion of wifi  
 > (although we seem of course to be talking about two different sorts, the  
 > in-home and the ISP [is the latter even referred to as "wi-fi", or just  
 > "wireless"?]).

Hi Ammammata & J.P. Gilliver,

I post a lot of tutorials & helpful posts that benefit the Usenet potluck
o Where I strive to add details which verify the facts

Like you, I agree that all desktop users benefit from better WiFi options
o Particularly when they, like Ammammata, can access APs 12 km's away

At 30Mb/sec, no less!

To that end, it was also useful that pjp shared that his AP is 1km away
o Where the point is that anyone you can "see", you can share with

That's useful in a pinch - when good old American ingenuity is required
o Like when a neighborhood needs to set up WISP as we did ourselves

To that end, I just now added a few more 5GHz frequencies to my "antenna"
<https://www.ui.com/fcclabelrequest/

Where I also had to physically add a sticker (believe it or not) to the
antenna, as per FCC rules since the revised UNII rules legally modified the
previously approved FCC ID, and, more to the point, it modified the
previously set up available frequencies (and, more importantly, it changes
the legally allowed EIRP, particularly at the fringes of the band, in order
to reduce emissions).

This apparently had multiple instant benefits, not the least of which were
additional bands in the 5GHz spectrum and lower emissions in those bands.

With that change, I'm apparently attaining instantly better speeds!
<http://speedtest.net

I recommend users who want to connect to access points miles away, to keep
in mind the distances people like pjp, Ammammata, and I can attain with
reasonable speeds (with APs literally easily a dozen kilometers away).

--  
Sharing information on the Usenet potluck to benefit all who attend.

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 11:50:52 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hi Cindy,

That works perfectly, Cindy.
o Remember, this is "standard" Ethernet stuff (Cat5/RJ45 & all that).

That's the elegant beauty of having the knowledge described in this thread!
o It plugs directly into your computer - as long as you have an RJ45 port.

Please take a quick look at this photo I just snapped which shows the
connection from my DESKTOP RJ45 port to the "router & antenna".
 <https://i.postimg.cc/DfQJq437/mikrotikrouter.jpg

The cost of that setup is about what you pay for a SOHO router.
o And yet, the POWER is infinitely greater

As an example, you'd be hard pressed to get even 20 decibels EIRP out of
your SOHO router, whereas the antenna alone on this setup could easily be
30 decibels or more - and that doesn't even count the transmit power.

So, for the same amount of money as people spend to have repeaters in their
house, they can set up something like this, if they have the space and
knowledge, instead.

And, for the same amount of money that people spend to send wires to the
deepest darkest most inaccessible parts of their house, they can simply set
up an antenna like this to beam the signal.

In fact, I have multiple antennas like this set up OUTSIDE my house, which
face the house in order to beam the signal back INTO the house (and to the
pool and to the barn and to the shop, and to the driveway gate, etc.).

Notice all this can easily be done with a cable modem setup.
o All you need is an RJ45 port in your desktop or laptop computer.

--  
The point is this power is available to ALL desktops (with an RJ45 port).

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 12:23:49 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hi Cindy Hamilton,

If you already get good signal to and from anywhere you need to, with a  
typical cable modem and SOHO router, then you have absolutely no need for  
the technical acumen and powerful tools that this thread espouses.

Out here, where I live, above the Silicon Valley, just to give you an idea  
of the distances involved, we have 40 acre zoning, which means you can't  
even build a second house if you have only 79 acres of land.

Yet, we can 'see' millions of access points (literally and figuratively),  
which means, if we wanted to, we can have a friend many miles away connect  
his desktop to our cable modem (if we had a cable modem - which is  
essentially what our "radio" is so it's the same thing in effect).

More to the point, if I want to beam my signal from my desktop to the pool,  
which is only a few hundred feet away, I can, and if I want to reach the  
driveway gate, which is also hundreds of feet from the house, I can.

Likewise with the barn, shed, shop, and parking area.
o All I need is an RJ45 port (on any router, modem, laptop, or desktop).

What's even better, is our houses are rather large, where we can easily  
beam to all corners of the house from OUTSIDE the house.

All we do is connect a Cat5 cable to what you'd call a "cable modem", and  
then we can beam the cable modem Internet signal back into the house.

Since the signal is penetrating a structure, it won't go for miles in that  
case, but it's certainly powerful enough to penetrate to all floors and all  
corners of the house.

I can't be the only person on this newsgroup who would like that kind of  
power at about the same costs as what people are paying today for  
"repeaters" and "wifi dongles" for their laptops and desktops.

In summary, you don't need anything whatsoever by way of power & distance
o And that's fine - as it's a very useful datapoint which we appreciate

Hopefully other people enjoy having this kind of power at the same cost.

--  
Admittedly, the wifi dongles are tiny compared to this setup!

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 12:25:16 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

While it's normal for Trader to misunderstand even the most basic of things
o In general, most users on this newsgroup comprehend what Ethernet is

With this setup, at about the same cost as any normal SOHO router
o You can feed your entire house with signal many times more powerful

If you don't _need_ WiFi transmit power ... these tools aren't for you.
o But some on this ng need to transmit to the edge of their property line.

And to all corners and all floors of their house.
o At about the same cost as they're paying today (needing more shelf space)

--  
In addition, you "can" connect to APs miles away (if you want to).

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 19:39:06 -0400, Ken Hart wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hi Ken Hart,

Thanks for that purposefully helpful information, as Usenet is a potluck
where each of us brings what value we can share with the other members.

While I've repeatedly stated the cost of this powerful equipment is
essentially about what people already pay for their SOHO routers and their
repeaters, what I didn't say is that the equipment isn't generally to be
found in your basic "box" stores (e.g., Best Buy, Target, Walmart, Costco,
Home Depot, Frys, etc.).

Regarding the brands you seek, in my experience, two brands stand out:
o Ubiquiti <https://www.ui.com
* Mikrotik <https://mikrotik.com

While they're large corporations that produce many devices, in general
o Ubiquiti supplies low-cost well-made stand-alone complete units
o Mikrotik supplies even-lower-cost boards where you assemble it yourself

That's why you'll see my Ubiquiti equipment looks like this:
<https://i.postimg.cc/YqTk0q1T/ap.jpg

While my Mikrotick equipment looks like this:
<https://i.postimg.cc/DfQJq437/mikrotikrouter.jpg

Quoted text here. Click to load it

The good news is that the techniques and equipment described in this
thread, work with ANY typical Ethernet connection, such as the ports in the
back of your DSL or cable modem, and your home router, and your laptop or
desktop PC Ethernet port.

That's the beauty of knowing how to use the tools described here
o They work in all common situations (you just need more shelf space)

Quoted text here. Click to load it

I agree with you that the use of "antenna" to mean "transceiver + antenna"
is a colloquial use of the word, as is the use of "radio" or "router", and
even as is the use of "modem", where all are, for our purposes, essentially
the same thing.

We have a signal and a means to transmit that signal for miles (LOS).
o At just about the same cost as everyone here spends for their home router

But where the home router would be hard pressed to output 20 decibels
o And where we can easily transmit up to the legal limit around the world

Where every 3 decibels is twice the power - so that's a LOT of power
o Which is why any desktop can connect to an AP which is miles away

You just have to know what we've described in this thread to do it.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

I am always happy to share knowledge, as I feel Usenet is a potluck where
adults share among themselves items of useful value to everyone.

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 10:12:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hi Cindy & Trader,
Take a look at this photo of an outside antenna I just snapped for you:
<https://i.postimg.cc/SK04C6zL/ubiquiti-bullet-M2-hp.jpg

Notice things about this setup (which costs what your stuff does):
o One end is typical Ethernet (which plugs into anything you've got)
o The other end is typical Wi-Fi (which works with whatever you have)

The fact is that this is ten to one hundred times the power you have
o At about the same price

You just have to understand this fact
o And then you have to have a need for that kind of power

What I find rather illuminating, given Usenet is a public potluck, is when
people like trader repeatedly show up to the public potluck, but they
always seem to bring absolutely nothing of any value to the table, while at
the same time, those people like trader brazenly deny that any of the food
that anyone else brought "tastes good" to him.

Meanwhile, the fact is that one end of these devices plugs into anything
that each of us has at home that naturally takes the RJ45 plug (whether or
not trader accepts that it's called "Ethernet" colloquially when we do
that).

Despite trader always trying to dispute even the most obvious of facts,
another basic fact is that the other end of these devices, is an antenna,
which has a motherboard attached which transmits at WiFi frequencies and
protocols (aka 802.11 a, b, g, n, ac, etc.).

FACT:
o These devices can cost about as much as your current equipment costs
o These devices are easily more than ten times more powerful though
o In general, these devices are a bit larger (not in all cases though)

While there are people like Cindy who don't need this power, there may well
be others who can make use of these tools to gain this 10X power
differential, at no greater cost than what they paid for the 10X weaker
SOHO routers they use today.

Additionally, while there are people like Gavin and Frank who use Cat5
cable to connect to devices, there are cases where that's infeasible, which
is when beaming your own signal to the far corners of your property from
your "modem" back into the house or to the pool or to the driveway entrance
gate, is feasible for some people.

Heck, some of your kids have tree forts, don't they? (I've always lived in
rural areas where tree forts were the norm for the neighborhood boys.)
Wouldn't it be nice to paint your kids' tree forts with Internet?

Here's a picture of just one of my antennas, this one being only about 15d
Bi or so, with a Ubiquiti Bullet of about 27dBm or so attached to it.
<https://i.postimg.cc/SK04C6zL/ubiquiti-bullet-M2-hp.jpg

Since I'm trying to help others pick their equipment, here are current
prices, where you can see this costs as little as your typical router:
<https://www.ispsupplies.com/Ubiquiti-Bullet-M2HP
<https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-BULLET-M2-HP-Outdoor-802-11-M2HP/dp/B002SYS22E

Given 600 milliwatts is about 27 decibels, notice you already have about
ten times the power of your typical home router BEFORE you add an antenna!
<https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/mW_to_dBm.html

You can get ten times ten times the power of your router
o When you add an inexpensive antenna to the radio

Bear in mind what I've been trying to get people like trader to understand
o One end is Ethernet (which connects to anything you've got that's RJ45)
o The other end is WiFi (which connects to anything you've got that's WiFi)

Notice you easily get from 10 times to 100 times (or more) the power...
o All at "about the same price" as you're paying now for your equipment

If you know how and if you know what to buy
o You can connect almost anything you have now in your home
o To almost anywhere else (if you can "see" the other side)
o Or, if it's within a few hundred feet, even if you can't see it

This is basic computer, Ethernet, & WiFi stuff.

The datasheet on that $80 bullet transceiver (aka "radio") shows the point
that one end is a connection to any desired antenna, while the other end is
the same typical Ethernet connection that we all have all over the place:
o Atheros MIPS 24KC, 400MHz, 32MB SDRAM, 8MB Flash
o Networking Interface 1 X 10/100 BASE-TX (Cat. 5, RJ-45) Ethernet
o 2.4GHz, 5GHz, 802.11 b,g,n
<https://www.ispsupplies.com/core/media/media.nl?id=944028&c=393682&h=f2a5cdc8f246f497555a

Despite the fact there are people like trader who don't comprehend even
this simple Ethernet & WiFi stuff, the intelligent reader will instantly
notice that you can plug one end into your "modem" or into your "router",
which itself can be, they say, up to 100 meters away without a repeater:
<https://www.techwalla.com/articles/how-long-can-i-run-a-cat-5-cable
But where, in practice, you generally mount that antenna outside much
closer than that because it beams the WiFi signal for miles anyway.  

In summary:
o If you need to connectg to devices which can be miles away
o At about the same price that you pay now for your home equipment
o You can connect to those far away devices if you know how to do it

That's my contribution of value to this particular Usenet potluck thread.

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 13:03:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hi trader,

Why do you insist on proving you don't belong on this type of news group?

As usual, you contributed nothing of any value to this Usenet potluck  
(where the last time you did that, it went sort of like this):

Q: How do you fix a tire at home that I'm having issues trying to fix?
A: Duh. You always simply pay someone else to fix everything for you.

Bearing in mind, I don't bullshit, you know this to be a fact:
o Did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.home.repair/ST-xNgC5pnU/vkePS4r-AgAJ
Where you said, and I repeat, in full, verbatim:
  "Silly me, I just pay $15 a tire to get them mounted and  
   dynamically balanced. No fuss,  no muss..."

Reparing, mounting, and balancing your own tires at home, Trader
o Is something that I do all the time - and I love fixing stuff like that.

Yet, the fact is - you despise fixing stuff - and that's OK.
o What's not OK are incessantly worthless responses on this fixit group

Notice the dynamic that you always seem to prove, Trader:
1. Someone asks a technical repair question which others help answer
2. Yet you tell them they have to pay someone else to fix it for them

Why are you even on a fixit newsgroup, Trader ...  
o ... if you can't fix anything?

I consider it a basic American right to be able to fix my own stuff.
o While all you do is waste everyone's time, Trader - saying not to.

I didn't challenge you then when you wasted everyone's time, Trader,  
but all you _ever_ do, is waste everyone's time on this newsgroup.
o You don't fix anything
o You can't fix anything

But apparently, you NEED someone to challenge you on wasting our time
o Because if I don't challenge you - you continue to waste our time

Let's face the facts Trader...  
o You're better off NOT responding to _any_ thread I proffer  

You have absolutely nothing of value to add to ANY technical topic.
o And yet, you _insist_ on proving that - time and again.

Stop it.
o Please.

Stop wasting our time with your childish games you love to play.
o If you can't add any technical value to this thread - then don't post.

To help those who _can_ comprehend what I'm suggesting in this thread
o Here is a photo I just took showing the "typical" desktop connections
<https://i.postimg.cc/Gh22Sb2N/desktop.jpg

--  
My contribution to the Usenet potluck in this thread is to explain what
power is available to the typical home user at the same price they are
paying now for far less powerful equipment. If they NEED the power, this is
potentially useful technical information, particularly since this equipment
is NOT found in the typical consumer oriented hardware or electronic box
stores.

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 14:33:16 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

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Hi Trader,  

Why am I an "asshole" because you don't understand basic things?

At the risk of asking the obvious, did you even LOOK at this picture?
<https://i.postimg.cc/Gh22Sb2N/desktop.jpg

If you looked at it, at the risk of proffering another obvious question
o Do you comprehend that each of those "antennas" can connect to Wi-Fi?

One more super obvious question for you, Trader, just to be clear:
o Do you realize that the Wi-Fi connection can be anything they have?

Um ... like their typical Wi-Fi-enabled SOHO router, Trader.
o Or, anything that's typical Wi-Fi, Trader.

Let's summarize the basics for you, Trader, shall we?
o Any typical Ethernet
o Any typical Wi-Fi

Let us know when you comprehend that basic fact.
o Because the point is that this power is available to everyone.
o At about the same costs as what they paid for what they have now

Only what's better about this setup, Trader, is
o It's vastly more powerful than their typical home setup today.

Which, if they need that power...
o Is a good thing, is it not?

--  
Note that if people don't need this kind of Wi-Fi power, then, of course,
this thread isn't for them. It's only for those who can't connect
everything via Ethernet - such as their mobile devices at the pool and
their desktop computers which might be in far corners of their home.

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On 10/12/2019 5:16 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:
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If the best you can do is make a long post just to denigrate another it  
is you wasting everyone else's time.  Your mother would be ashamed of  
you and your values.

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 18:20:40 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

OK. I'll ignore Trader_4 for the remainder of this thread...
o Starting now.

Besides, I think I've almost fully shot my wad on this topic unless...
o Unless one of the recipients wants to try it themselves.

They might have questions since you have to know what to buy
o And you have to know how to set it up  

Which depends on what you're doing with it.

For example, if you're simply "painting the pool"  
o So that the kids can be on their phone far from the house

The software switches will be different than if you're connecting to an AP.

Rest assured, this equipment can do anything you typically want to do
o Where the switches inside the router software make it what it is.

In summary, I haven't covered the software because it would only matter if
someone needs help setting theirs up - otherwise - all that really matters
is two things:
o The distances people volunteered are real - and very possible
o If you simply purchase this equipment - instead of the 'consumer' stuff

The good news is that it costs just about the same as consumer stuff
o But the bad news is that it's usually (not always) a bit larger stuff

--  
Sharing purposefully helpful ideas on Usenet; one idea at a time.

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 00:35:22 -0400, Paul wrote:

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Hi Paul,

Thanks for that powerpoint, where I have no idea how to buy "unlicensed"
equipment, nor do I care to even think about unlicensed stuff, since the
Ubiquiti stuff kills typical SOHO routers anyway.

The SOHO routers, at about the same price, are a puny 20 dB as far as I can
tell, whereas this Ubiquiti stuff, at the same price, is easily ten to a
hundred times better gain.

BTW, not the 2 dB coax loss used in the calculation on page 11 (counting
the cover page as page 1), where in the threads I previously mentioned, I
think it was Jeff Liebermann who said just the pigtail alone is a half
decibel loss, where the PowerBeam we're talking about, has no pigtail to
deal with.

On page 12, it says the 2.4 GHz & 5GHz omni max EIRP is 36 dBm.
Page 12 also says, for directional signals...
o For every 3dB of antenna gain beyond 6dBi
o Reduce the transmit power by 1dBm

Given we know the $90 PowerBeam M2 400 that Paul asked about  
o Starts with only 26 decibels of transmit power
o into an 18dBi antenna...
<https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-PowerBeam-Wireless-Bridge-PBE-M2-400/dp/B00OJZO9PY

That's line 5 exactly on Paul's chart on page 12:
o Max Power of 26 dBm + 18 dBi = 44 dBm (i.e., 25 Watts)
<https://www.streakwave.com/mmSWAVE1/Video/PowerBeam_DS.pdf

Which tells us that radio Paul asked about is capable of the maximum
o But no more (i.e., in this application, you can't be illegal)
Which, I assume, is exactly what you'd want ... is it not?

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hi Paul,
Thank you for finding the fact that, as I had thought, the software "turns
down the transmit power" based on the antenna gain (and country
regulations).

I think anyone who complains, at this stage, about "legal limits" is sort
of like someone who quibbles about the spelling of decibels. If that's all
they can offer - which is a warning to not exceed legal limits - then
that's sort of like warning someone not to step in front of a speeding
train ... it's not useful information since everyone already knows it.

What's useful is if we could figure out the EIRP of our typical $100 home
routers, where I'm under the impression 20 decibels would be a good one,
where the key point is that, for the same $90, we get the most powerful
radio you can legally use in the US.
<https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-PowerBeam-Wireless-Bridge-PBE-M2-400/dp/B00OJZO9PY

BTW, for $140 in toto, you can destroy your router's puny 2 dBi omni with  
<https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Bullet-BM2HP-Antenna-HG2409U-PRO/dp/B06XQ4D9FS
o Bullet M2 HP 26dBm (see Paul's quote above)
o 8.5 dBi omni antenna
Which makes for about 34 decibels, compared to, at about the same price, a
puny SOHO router of, oh, if you're lucky, about 20 decibels (although it
would be nice to find facts for what current $140 routers provide today).

IMHO, at those prices, with that power in your hands, and especially given
how small (physically) a bullet is (it fits in the palm of your hand), it's
a wonder _anyone_ buys a horridly weak router at anything near that price.

--  
The beauty of this knowledge is that you can get a far more powerful
"router" at the same cost as you paid for your weakling router today.

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On 10/16/19 12:37 AM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:
[ The usual shit deleted. ]

If you already know all the answers, why do you waste our time
asking questions?

--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

Re: Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:49:26 +1100, Lucifer wrote:

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Lucifer,

When you're on a rooftop, "aiming an antenna", and you call down to the guy
below connected via a laptop to the other end of the POE, asking...
o "Did we get to 60 decibels yet"

Do you really think it's helpful if the helper starts quibbling
o About the "type" of decibels, or
o About the "minus" sign?

Only in the classroom, where the goals are different
o Is the type of qubbling you did ... even remotely helpful

Your quibbling (and that of others) was of no value to the group.
o It only made _you_ feel good that you found an inaccuracy

It's jsut as if you harangue the tire shops for advertising
o "We balance tires"
Or
o "We balance wheels"

When you probably don't know the slightest thing about any of this stuff.
o If you do, your quibbling doesn't prove it.

If you want to ADD VALUE, Lucifer, realize that Usenet is a pot luck.
o Your value is what you ADD to the equation

Quibbling about everyone elses' food without bringing any of your own
o Is what you did, Lucifer.

Why don't you try to ADD value to this thread, Lucifer?
o Tell us how you increase the range of our desktops, for example;
o Or, tell us how to throw (or receive) Internet from afar, Lucifer;
o Or, tell us how to paint WIFi to the far corners of our property.

Tell us something useful.

Tell us something we don't already know, Lucifer.
o Instead of childishly quibbling about colloquial terminology.

--  
The value add here is that for about the price of a typicl router, you can
get far more powerful equipment that works better, when you need range.

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