Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?

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I just recently found out that our cellphones may be giving google,  
(by default anyway), in general, all the SSIDs around us, but, more  
sinisterly specifically, the SSID of our own home broadband routers.

My first question is whether that's true (by default)?

My second question is how to turn that off (only if it's true).

NOTE: I am not asking if we give google our geolocation; I'm only  
asking if we give them our SSID when we're at home and under
what conditions (so that I can turn off those conditions).

NOTE: I also know about _nomap (but that's not what I'm asking).

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
Alice J. schrieb am 2016-01-29 um 08:27:

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Yep - and this is nothing new. Google has been collecting SSIDs as long
as they do picture recording for StreetView.

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For Android: Yes.

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For Android: Depending on the in the advanced WiFi settings - the option
is called "Scanning always available - Let Google's location service and
other apps scan for networks...".




--  
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de
http://fahrradzukunft.de

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
Arno Welzel wrote in message 56AB1B69.8040203@arnowelzel.de:

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I was trying to be very specific in NOT bringing up the fact
that they record the SSID with the camera car that drives
around our neighborhood.

That's a DIFFERENT recording that Google does with extremely
expensive and special equipment mounted to the roof of a car.

I was only talking about our everyday cellphones.

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If that's true, then we're giving Google the SSID of our home routers  
every single night while we sleep (by default).

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I don't have "Scanning always available..." as an option in my S3
which is running Android 4.3.

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
Alice J. schrieb am 2016-01-29 um 11:44:

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There is no "special equipment" needed to see SSIDs. When I go to the
backyard of the apartment building where I live, I can easily pick up
around 10 different SSIDs with my smartphone.

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Yep. And as long as you don't live in a very high floor or have some
kind of magnetic shielding in your house everybody around the place you
live will pick up the SSID as well - and so the smartphones moving along
the place you live.

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The option I described is in Android 5.1. Maybe it is in the advanced
location service settings or in the "Google Settings" app which can be
found on some devices.


--  
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de
http://fahrradzukunft.de

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
Arno Welzel wrote in message 56AB8F0B.6000309@arnowelzel.de:

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I didn't want to get into the Google cars sniffing of SSIDs.
I just wanted to keep the question about what my phone and my neighbor's
phone does while we're sleeping.

Does the Apple iOS equipment also hand Google our home SSIDs while we sleep?

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To be clear, I'm just worried about my home SSID and what happens  
on my phone (which I can control) and what happens on my neighbor's phones
(which I can't control).

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I'm on Android 4.3 but still, I can't control the phones of my neighbors.
So what matters mostly is what the default allows.

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
Alice J. schrieb am 2016-01-29 um 17:37:

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Maybe they do also send SSIDs - but not to Google of course but to Apple.

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As i explained - the SSIDs may be transferred along with the current
mobile network cell id and/or GPS location so Google can use the SSIDs
as an additional way for "coarse location".

But I don't worry about this. Neither my privacy nor the security of my
data depends on hiding the SSID of my home WiFi network.

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AFAIK the default allows transmitting the SSID. So even if you turn it
off on your own device many other devices may still tell Google which
SSIDs they see at their current location. But I'm not sure about this as
I don't check this on every device I use.


--  
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de
http://fahrradzukunft.de

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?

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Note that it's BSSIDs that are really used for location services,
however, I suspect SSIDs are sent too.

--  
You're so ugly you could be a modern art masterpiece.

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
DevilsPGD wrote in message 91a2bbd5b1aa173tc1lqg35447lh3rme1e@4ax.com:

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This says "WiFi positioning databases store the BSSID, GPS coordinates  
and RSSI value".
http://wlanbook.com/how-to-hide-your-mac-address-from-wifi-positioning-databases/

I think it's suspicious that the ESSID isn't listed there.

The article suggests you change your LAN WiFi card BSSID to DE:AD:BE:EF:13:37
   One MAC address that can be used is DE:AD:BE:EF:13:37.  
   This MAC address geolocates to Piazza di Porta Maggiore, 2-4 40125 Bologna, Italy.
   Latitude: 44.4899982 Longitude: 11.3569865  

However I can't get this MAC address location lookup tool to work:
 http://wlanbook.com/oui-mac-address-lookup-tool/

Does it work for you to find your MAC address in the Google location db?
  

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
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The ability to geo-locate MAC addresses was turned off a few years ago.

--  
Clarence A Dold - Santa Rosa, CA, USA  GPS: 38.47,-122.65

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
dold@57.usenet.us.com wrote:

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keep reading ...



Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
In message xP-dnTqjdvHHPiTLnZ2dnUU78VednZ2d@brightview.co.uk, Andy Burns
said:

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Andy,
Thanks for all your input and advice.

Have you had a chance to test or consider whether a phone
itself, with the hotspot turned on, shows up in the Google
public location database?

I know the arguments that it we would hope that it shouldn't,  
but, that doesn't at all mean that it doesn't.

They shouldn't have our passwords either, but they do.


Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
[...]
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  Wrong. They *must* have them in order for restore/copy to work. Don't
like it? Don't use a smart-phone.

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
Frank Slootweg schrieb am 2016-02-10 um 20:19:

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Or just turn off the backup function in the respective settings.


--  
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de
http://fahrradzukunft.de

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
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  Do those settings stick when 'she' continuously deletes and adds
Google Play accounts?

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
In message n9bf0v$dsm$2@blue-new.rahul.net, dold said:

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While I haven't been successful yet, Andy Burns certainly was, so,  
you need to be aware of the following:

1. Even if you don't own Android, and,  
2. Even if you (like I) turn *off* everything that can spy on you,  
3. Your stooopid neighbors and friends aren't as smart as you are,  
4. Such that *they* are spying on you when they're near you,
5. By sending YOUR multiple MAC addresses & location to Google!

Worse...
A. Anyone with the skills that Andy Burns clearly has,  
B. Can simply query the Google database, once they know YOUR Mac addresses
C. Such that they can geolocate YOUR LAST POSITION.
D. (Which "can" be, AFAICT, your phone, under certain circumstances.

For example, if a husband suspects a wife of cheating with his best
friend, he can simply run a script that queries the Google public DB
for the simultaneous location of both his wife's phone MAC and his
best friend's home router.


Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
Alice J. schrieb am 2016-02-10 um 17:04:

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Google then knows that there is a WiFi visible to the public using a
specific MAC address. So what?

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And how to people know which MAC address is yours?

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Didn't you just say "turn *off* everything that can spy on you"? I would
assume this also means "turn off any mobile device".

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He could also hire a private investigator to find out what his wife does
- and she wouldn't know this as well.


--  
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de
http://fahrradzukunft.de

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
On 10/02/2016 16:04, Alice J. wrote:
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Now come on. Google have this database to help our devices locate  
themselves when there is no GPS signal (indoors mainly). We can also  
tell that devices don't send info about location of WiFi they can  
receive very often because people would have complained about their data  
limit being slowly used up as they move around! Google would also be mad  
to immediately add any info they received in to any database; they will  
wait until several independent devices have reported it at the same  
location and no other location for at least a few days.

They're not stupid and they're going to make it work as a way for  
devices to locate themselves from WiFi signals not as anything else.

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You'll have to demonstrate that before I believe it.

--  

Brian Gregory (in the UK).
To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address.

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
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a few years ago, there was some Apple data backed up
by iTunes that "exposed" locations.
I analyzed the data, coincidentally including a trip
to Disneyland. it definitely showed that we were somewhere
adjacent to I-5, and even that we were somewhere near  
Disneyland.
Around home, it was not fine enough to know what street  
we were on, much less whose bedroom.

querying a Google database for someone else's MAC location  
used to be allowed, but is no longer.
And it was only ever access points, not the attached clients.


--  
Clarence A Dold - Santa Rosa, CA, USA  GPS: 38.47,-122.65

Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
Alice J. wrote:

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I agree with Frank that even for phones in WiFi hotspot mode, google  
aren't likely to enter their locations into the MAC database unless they  
don't ever move around, that would weaken the purpose of the database.

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It's not a high level of skill to follow an API that is designed to give  
a position from the MAC addresses of two or more access points, it's not  
as though I hacked something to subvert its real purpose.

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But how does someone know the MAC addresses of your router unless  
they're within sight of your house in the first place? It's not  
"personal" information.

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Not very likely IMHO, why would she constantly have hotspot enabled?  
she'd likely notice the high battery drain if suspecting hubby  
surreptitiously enabled it ... easier for him to stick a GPS tracker  
under her car, or look at the google maps location history of her phone  
(if he knows her google password).



Re: Are we all handing to Google the SSID of our home routers?
Alice J. wrote:

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Sit down before you read this then ...

By default android devices give the *passwords* for your SSIDs to  
google, so that when you enter it into one device, it syncs to other  
devices on the same account, so you don't need to enter the password  
again, or when you replace your device it can restore the settings.



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