'Real' cost ?
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Posted by DanS on August 14, 2008, 5:44 pm
Please log in for more thread options Has anyone hear ever worked on a municipality video surveilance system ? Buffalo, NY just finished installing a 60 camera system using the 4.9 GHz Public safety band. The link below is an article about it. The question is the cost. According to the article, it seems like the camera's and radio equipment needed and the city paid for, amotized over the 60 camera's, ended up costing ~ $41,000 per camera location. Additional costs for a monitoring room, (what I'm assuming are site-surveys) analytics, and other additional costs. I've seen many of them around the city, and all of the ones I've seen appear to be mounted on existing locations (meaning none of the $41K per site included construction/installation of special poles or dedicated towers.) I guess it's all in the cost of the camera's.....(which I couldn't find online with a quick search.) Still though, $41K per camera site sounds pretty high. http://www.bpdny.org/Home/Press/Current/MayorBrownSurveillanceCameraUpdate | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Jeff Liebermann on August 14, 2008, 9:38 pm
Please log in for more thread options On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:44:36 +0000 (UTC), DanS >Has anyone hear ever worked on a municipality video surveilance system ?
Knot Me. >Buffalo, NY just finished installing a 60 camera system using the 4.9 GHz
>Public safety band. > >The link below is an article about it. > >The question is the cost. According to the article, it seems like the >camera's and radio equipment needed and the city paid for, amotized over >the 60 camera's, ended up costing ~ $41,000 per camera location. Additional >costs for a monitoring room, (what I'm assuming are site-surveys) >analytics, and other additional costs. > >I've seen many of them around the city, and all of the ones I've seen >appear to be mounted on existing locations (meaning none of the $41K per >site included construction/installation of special poles or dedicated >towers.) > >I guess it's all in the cost of the camera's.....(which I couldn't find >online with a quick search.) > >Still though, $41K per camera site sounds pretty high. > >http://www.bpdny.org/Home/Press/Current/MayorBrownSurveillanceCameraUpdate "The equipment includes: sixty (60) surveillance cameras and supporting software ($2,534,895.00); analytics for sixty (60) surveillance cameras ($180,000.00); video surveillance monitors, furniture, workstations and software for a video surveillance room ($212,520.00); and an outdoor events video monitoring trailer ($37,500). The contract also includes a $41,300.00 Performance Bond, bringing the total project cost to $3,006,215.00. The purchase of the system was made possible through the use of NYS Aid Incentive to Municipalities (Efficiency Grant) funding and, upon the Mayor's request, was formally approved by the Buffalo Common Council." This might be a photo of the hardware: <http://www.avriogroup.com/docs/Public%20Safety%20Data%20Sheet.pdf>
Well, a Tropos node is about the same complexity (with a much better package) at about $3,500 each. Top of the line Toshiba PTZ camera is about $1,800. Packaging adds about $500. Power system (w/o solar), about $300. No clue on the "software" but $1,000 each should be tolerable. That makes my guess about $7,100 total. They paid $2,534,895 for 60 cameras = $42,248 each. 6x markup. I should get out of engineering and go into "crime fighting". -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by DanS on August 14, 2008, 11:16 pm
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> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:44:36 +0000 (UTC), DanS
> >>Has anyone hear ever worked on a municipality video surveilance system
>>? >
> Knot Me. > >>Buffalo, NY just finished installing a 60 camera system using the 4.9
>>GHz Public safety band. >> >>The link below is an article about it. >> >>The question is the cost. According to the article, it seems like the >>camera's and radio equipment needed and the city paid for, amotized >>over the 60 camera's, ended up costing ~ $41,000 per camera location. >>Additional costs for a monitoring room, (what I'm assuming are >>site-surveys) analytics, and other additional costs. >> >>I've seen many of them around the city, and all of the ones I've seen >>appear to be mounted on existing locations (meaning none of the $41K >>per site included construction/installation of special poles or >>dedicated towers.) >> >>I guess it's all in the cost of the camera's.....(which I couldn't >>find online with a quick search.) >> >>Still though, $41K per camera site sounds pretty high. >> >>http://www.bpdny.org/Home/Press/Current/MayorBrownSurveillanceCameraUpd >>ate >
> "The equipment includes: sixty (60) surveillance cameras and > supporting software ($2,534,895.00); analytics for sixty (60) > surveillance cameras ($180,000.00); video surveillance monitors, > furniture, workstations and software for a video surveillance room > ($212,520.00); and an outdoor events video monitoring trailer > ($37,500). The contract also includes a $41,300.00 Performance Bond, > bringing the total project cost to $3,006,215.00. The purchase of the > system was made possible through the use of NYS Aid Incentive to > Municipalities (Efficiency Grant) funding and, upon the Mayor's > request, was formally approved by the Buffalo Common Council." > > This might be a photo of the hardware: > <http://www.avriogroup.com/docs/Public%20Safety%20Data%20Sheet.pdf> > > Well, a Tropos node is about the same complexity (with a much better > package) at about $3,500 each. Top of the line Toshiba PTZ camera is > about $1,800. Packaging adds about $500. Power system (w/o solar), > about $300. No clue on the "software" but $1,000 each should be > tolerable. That makes my guess about $7,100 total.f > > They paid $2,534,895 for 60 cameras = $42,248 each. 6x markup. > I should get out of engineering and go into "crime fighting". Yes the camera 'software' is a mystery. They additionally paid for software for the video surveillance room which I'm guessing is for managing the views and camera's. The camera s/w I can guess would be the comapanies s/w to administer to the device....you'd think a MIB would suffice. I know that the company I'm at would have been able to do the hardware and installations for that for 1/2 that price....I'm positive most of it was on existing hardware......lamp post's, signal arms, etc. so there wasn't the need for high-dollar construction. Regards, DanS | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Jeff Liebermann on August 14, 2008, 11:59 pm
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On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 03:16:18 +0000 (UTC), DanS >I know that the company I'm at would have been able to do the hardware
>and installations for that for 1/2 that price....I'm positive most of it >was on existing hardware......lamp post's, signal arms, etc. so there >wasn't the need for high-dollar construction. Well, there's a clue in the original article which says: "Johnson Controls, Inc. was the lowest responsible bidder to respond to a Request for Proposals issued by the Mayor's Office," Lowest -RESPONSIBLE- bidder is a sneaky way of disclosing that there were lower bids from other companies, but that the bids contained something that turned off the Buffalo bureaucracy. Usually it's something like claiming that the size of the vendor is insufficient to meet the ongoing needs of the city or something equally vague. You might want to determine if the mayors favorite charity received a donation. No clue about the Avrio Group. This is what they call a corporate data sheet: <http://www.avriogroup.com/docs/Avrio%20One%20Pager.pdf>
No numbers of any kind. Maybe Buffalo just tossed a coin?
I managed to determine that there were 8 original bidders, but can't find the names. Duh... Here are some photos of last years demo: <http://www.bpdny.org/Home/Press/2007/NewSurveillanceCameraDemo>
Crude at best. Look at the last paragraph. Reading between the
lines, it looks like Buffalo is using State and Federal money to build up their PD/FD data network, that has nothing to do with the actual cameras. That may explain the high markup. Proposed camera locations: <http://tinyurl.com/25tvbq>
That's quite an area to cover with 4.9GHz repeaters/mesh.
"First Arrests Made within Hours of System Installation..." <http://www.firetide.com/innercontent.aspx?taxid=16&id=2010>
The article has more techy information on the system. Looks like
"evidence grade cameras" Axis cameras and video servers, which is where the optics costs more than the camera. However, looking at the demo photos, I don't think they're using anything sophisticated. Firetide mesh radios. <http://www.firetide.com/innerContent.aspx?taxid=6&id=50>
OnSSI video management, which methinks is the mystery software: <http://www.onssi.com>
There are downloadable demos if you wanna play.
Nice setup, but hardly worth $42,000 each. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by DanS on August 15, 2008, 11:28 am
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> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 03:16:18 +0000 (UTC), DanS
> >>I know that the company I'm at would have been able to do the hardware
it
>>and installations for that for 1/2 that price....I'm positive most of >>was on existing hardware......lamp post's, signal arms, etc. so there
>>wasn't the need for high-dollar construction. >
> Well, there's a clue in the original article which says: > "Johnson Controls, Inc. was the lowest responsible > bidder to respond to a Request for Proposals issued by > the Mayor's Office," > > Lowest -RESPONSIBLE- bidder is a sneaky way of disclosing that there > were lower bids from other companies, but that the bids contained > something that turned off the Buffalo bureaucracy. Usually it's > something like claiming that the size of the vendor is insufficient to > meet the ongoing needs of the city or something equally vague. You > might want to determine if the mayors favorite charity received a > donation. No clue about the Avrio Group. This is what they call a > corporate data sheet: > <http://www.avriogroup.com/docs/Avrio%20One%20Pager.pdf> > No numbers of any kind. Maybe Buffalo just tossed a coin? > > I managed to determine that there were 8 original bidders, but can't > find the names. > > Duh... Here are some photos of last years demo: > <http://www.bpdny.org/Home/Press/2007/NewSurveillanceCameraDemo> > Crude at best. Look at the last paragraph. Reading between the > lines, it looks like Buffalo is using State and Federal money to build > up their PD/FD data network, that has nothing to do with the actual > cameras. That may explain the high markup. > > Proposed camera locations: > <http://tinyurl.com/25tvbq> > That's quite an area to cover with 4.9GHz repeaters/mesh. > > "First Arrests Made within Hours of System Installation..." > <http://www.firetide.com/innercontent.aspx?taxid=16&id=2010> > The article has more techy information on the system. Looks like > "evidence grade cameras" Axis cameras and video servers, which is > where the optics costs more than the camera. However, looking at the > demo photos, I don't think they're using anything sophisticated. > > Firetide mesh radios. > <http://www.firetide.com/innerContent.aspx?taxid=6&id=50> > > OnSSI video management, which methinks is the mystery software: > <http://www.onssi.com> > There are downloadable demos if you wanna play. > > Nice setup, but hardly worth $42,000 each. Geez, Jeff, even I wasn't into doing that much research. But thanks, I'll forward this info to the powers that be. I missed the 'responsible' bidder thing. My gut feeling is that since it was grant money, cost wasn't a concern. There also had to be some kind of kickbacks somewhere....no doubt. Johnson controls is a huge company. Earlier this year, we, as a small company, provided our OEM I/O radio gear, network design, on-site prop studies, and radio management/monitoring s/w to a project in Florida along I-75 that monitors guardrails along 'Alligator Alley' for collision breakthrus, and relays this info back to HQ. This was 250-ish nodes and the total of our contract was around $260K. I guess they got a really good deal. Granted this was the 900 SS 115Kbps gear, but about 4 times the number of nodes. I even had to design some custom antenna standoffs for these tapered concrete polls they are using at Master locations. Looking at the map of the camera locations here in Buffalo, there's enough space between them that I can easily see the criminals just moving somewhere else. That's kind fo funny....and not. For instance, on the far right, and centrally located top to bottom is the intersection of Bailey and Genesee. Bailey runs N & S and Genesee is the road going SW to NE. From that intersection, all the way SW down Genesee there is not one other camera. The camera's I've seen are maybe mounted at street light height, at best. Almost all of the homes up and down the sidestreets off of Genesee are close-together, 2 story, city homes, so I don't see too much benefit, other than maybe a couple hundred yards in each direction the camera can 'look' up and down the street. Thanks again for the info Jeff. Regards, DanS | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
