Ring voltage measurment question [telecom]

[...]

My guess is a corodded connection somewhere between your phone and the CO.

Measure ring voltage (an analog multimeter would be best) at the NIJ and at your phones. A significant difference would place the bad connection on your territory. Little or no difference puts it in the telco's lap.

Also see if a phone rings better at the NIJ than its normal place. This would also indicate the problem is yours.

A partial short would have a similar effect and test.

A friend of mine, in a rural location, had ringing trouble. He called his local telephone company and they added something to the line pole. The problem was resolved.

One test you might make is plugging in a phone at the demarc box, isolating out the phones in your house, then calling the phone. If that phone rings ok, it would suggest there is a problem in your house wiring, perhaps a short or leak. If that phone fails to ring, then it probably is a telco problem.

Two conventional telephone sets is not a large ringing load and they should work fine. Perhaps you should report it to your phone company and let them try to fix it, before you go to the trouble of measurements, etc. Good luck.

Help me understand: this "weak ringing" or "chatter" is taking place as an incoming call is trying to notify you it's coming in? -- if so, it gives the appearance of either a too-low ringing voltage, or some resistive degradation in your wiring. Or is it the sort of bell-activity that reflects some random high-amplitude noise, or perhaps stutter dial-tone, on your line -- if that, I've encountered it, and it lasted until some years later, when a nest of squirrels on the outside overhead pole wires resulted in so much squirrel-tooth and squirrel-poop damage to the conductors that a truck-roll was needed to string up new wire. New wire => no more chatter.

Cheers, and best of luck, -- tlvp

Yes. Answering the slightly twittering phone reveals an incoming call.

Yes, since setting the clapper to the low voltage position fixed it. For now. But will it get worse? Hence the effort to determine the origin of the problem.

Wire is open to view for half a mile at least. No squirrels, bird nests or the like in evidence.

Replies from snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (Rich Greenberg) and HAncock4 noted.

I'll follow up > Measure ring voltage (an analog multimeter would be best)...

Oh, good.

Thanks, all,

Okay. That gives me a little confidence.

Analog multimeter says that during ringing there'a 18 volts across the terminals of the (outside) NIJ and across the terminals of the (indoor) block into which the phone is plugged. Sheesh!

Ring is the only problem; none with calling out or sound quality.

Next stop: telco service folks, but armed with a little knowledge.

Thank you.

Make a couple of additional tests, first.

0) first, disconnect -all- phone equipment -- sets, answering machines, etc. 1a) measure the 'not ringing' voltage at both the NIJ and the internal block. (use "DC volts" setting, try the probes in both combinations) 1b) also , measure the 'not ringing' current flow (use a 'DC 100 milliamp' setting) through the two wires, both at the NIJ and at the internal block. 2) measure the 'ringing' voltage at both the NIJ and the internal block. (use "AC volts" setting, try the probes in both combinations)

Wow, that should ideally be 90 volts.

[Quoting at possibly excessive length...]

snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-b> >> snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (Rich Greenberg) wrote:

The telco guy came before I did all that.

He measured the ringing & non-ringing voltage as DC! He claimed twenty-mumble years on the job, had never been asked to deal with ring voltage, insisted that the only meaningful measurement was DC voltage. 52 VDC at the demarc (NIJ? Outdoor thingy between my wires and theirs) and at the cabinet 5 miles away. Slightly higher when ringing. Dismissed my measurement of 18 VAC when ringing as not meaningful. He went away content that there was no problem leaving me confused. Happens that phones rang as they should when he was here.

That's all contrary to what y'all have told me here (measure AC ring voltage at, should be 40V to 90V). Did I draw a complete dummy tech? It's not as if a 20+ year guy has never seen a 2500 set or a phone that has a "real" ringer. There are folks here with old rotary-dial sets.

Oh, well, I'll follow your directions, Robert, and file results for future reference. Grumble...mutter...

Tnx,

Mike,

I suggest you follow these steps:

1. Borrow a "Genuine Bell Canada" phone, and plug it in at the demarc. Don't use your own phone: you need a "Known Good" instrument for this test. If the problem persists, it's their trouble. If not, it's yours.

("Genuine Bell" is important: phones from other manufacturers often have non-standard ringers that the techs won't trust. When you can point to a label that shows it is/was their instrument, they'll be less likely to blame the phone.)

1. If the test shows a problem in the telco network, I suggest you

A. Send a letter to the Nova Scotia PSC, and ask any neighbors who have had the same problem to co-sign it:

Public Service Commission 1800 Argyle Street, 5th Floor PO Box 943 Halifax, Nova Scotia B3J 2V9

B. Contact your MP, and complain at length about poor service. It's important to use longhand when you write, because politicians place great weight on hand-written letters.

HTH.

Bill

[ sneck ] *Generally* if there's something wrong with the -wiring- between you and the C.O. it will affect both battery and ring. There are exceptions, but they are rare. If the voltage is good, *and* the 'shorted' current at the DEMARC is rational, that pretty much clears the telco wiring.

This leaves the possibility of an 'intermittent' wiring problem, but the fact that you have a 'usable' voice connection when you take a phone off-hook after a 'bad' ring, tends to eliminate the possibility of something in the telco wiring. This leaves only a couple of possibilities:

1) *inside* the phone that you picked up. specifically in the ringer circuitry of that phone. If you've got multiple phones, and they all have 'weak ring' when there's a problem, and you can pick up any phone and have good voice volume, that eliminates =this= possibility. 2) _at_ the C.O, or 'remote'. Specifically, a bad 'ring generator'. When a good ring generator is switched on to your line, the phone rings properly. when the C.O. selects the _bad_ one, you get the "low-voltage" ring issue.

Also, you might try measuring the AC voltage during a good ring _and_ when a 'weak' one occurs. This'll give you some additional ammunition if you have to call the telco in again.

Two phones. When the problem occurs, both ring feebly or not at all. Both have good voice volume (and no static or hum) when picked up. Same after one of the phones has been swapped for another.

The problem has not recurred since the telco tech was here. Nothing was dis- and re-connected here. I suppose it's possible -- wild surmise -- that when he "checked" the voltage at the cabinet out on the highway [1] he tweaked or bumped something that altered the ring voltage or generation.

Good idea. And I can do that beacuse, for now, ringing is good even with the 2500 clapper spring set in default position.

Tnx.

[1] Is there a name for that cabinet? The central office is ca. 13 miles away, the cabinet only 4 as the wire runs.

Frequently referred to, generally, as a 'vault', especially if underground. Above-ground units may be called a 'pedestal' (if small) or a 'hut' (if big enough to walk into).

Beyond that, "it depends".

It -may- be nothing more than a splice point, where multiple small feeder cable runs that each feed a group of residences are connected to a single larger trunk cable that runs back towards the C.O. Depending on geography and the density of subscribers, there may be more than one level of this 'concentration' into bigger cables.

*OR* it may have active electronics in it. Anything from a full 'remote' extension of the C.O. switch, down to just a 'channel bank' equivalent which breaks out a multiplexed, (usually) fiber, circuit from the C.O. into the individual copper circuits to the customer premises. There are different names for this kind of an installation, depending on what kind of functionality (and the degree of autonomy from the C.O. switch) that the on-site electronics provide.

'vault'/'pedestal'/'hut' describes the physical enclosure, without any assumptions, implicit or otherwise, about what is 'inside' the enclosure.

[Moderator snip]

Probably Digital loop carrier.

Does the box you mention look like the photo in Wikipedia?

Neal McLain

[further details snipped]

Medium sized, two-door cab> Probably Digital loop carrier.

Yes, but also like the one at:

Rural area, guessing a few hundred scattered dwellings, no industry or commerce nearby. A friend who lives close -- 1/2 mi. -- to a similar cabinet (but far from the CO) can have ADSL because of that proximity. That may identify what lives in the cabinet.

Would the telco device that actually generated my ring voltage be located in that DLC/RLC/box?

I know, I know, "it depends". :-) I'll have to go take a closer look at it. If there's a nice little tag that identifies it, it isn't readable when passing at the usual 100' at highway speed.

Tnx,

The clue is: does it get power? Any DLC will need power, and backup battery within.

If no electric meter, it's a 'cross-connect cabinet' or 'xconn' or 'XC'. Local usage varies; the term IDF for 'intermediate distribution facility' may be used in other places.

But at 68 kilofeet, I'd think DLC.

At one point, 8 or so years ago, a management guy (pinch-hitting for striking techs) claimed to have replaced a "circuit board" in the cabinet in question. Small factoidal evidence for "probable".

I still find it hard to believe that a Bell Aliant tech told me stuff that, according to y'all here on c.d.t. and others elsewhere, was flatly wrong. Working on it.

I've been both bitten and blessed that LoPS.

Tnx,

snipped-for-privacy@null.invalid (Ron) wrote in news:1klb6ws.oopg46dxj39kN% snipped-for-privacy@null.invalid:

Minimum ring voltage at the NI: 55V RMS @ 20/30 Hz (Depending on ILEC).