Wire type for peripherals on residential burg/fire panels

For residential burg I use 18 gauge FPLR to wire keypads, transformers, sirens, and of course fire devices ( and CO). I do this whether or not the system will include fire devices initially. My thought being if I don't and the owner decides on fire protection down the line it would be more work.

Curious as to how other installers deal with this. The company I worked for before I started my business never used fire wire, even for the fire devices themselves.

Reply to
Effenpig1
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Let me put it to you this way One of the side things I do is Fire Investigation for Insurance companies. the very first question they ask on form they send for a failure analysis investigation asks. Does the system meet all codes code at time it was installed.

2nd question is would system have functioned properly had code been followed. 3rd question is were proper permits and inspections done.

If I walk in on a system that has failed and find telco or any other type of wire being used for the smokes and heats etc. that would be a violation of NEC and NFPA -ICC

You are doing the right thing. absolutely the others are leaving them selves exposed. and no matter how you write a contract sooner or later you will get popped and even if you win what it is costing in time and money will be horrendous. I got sued because an asshole customer was to lazy to check his system after it went off and police looked in and saw no one because they were in a back room breaking into the safe. Thank God jury saw this case for what it was but it still cost how many days time and money defending it.

Reply to
nick markowitz

What about wiring the keypad, siren,and transformer with FPLR on systems with fire? How about systems without fire in case of future add-ons, any one think either is unnecessary?

Reply to
Effenpig1

It can't hurt, but if there's no fire detection to begin with on a residential system....why would you want to?...because there might be one day?

Reply to
Crash Gordon

Thats the way I always did it

Reply to
mleuck

Exactly

Reply to
Effenpig1

if there is a fire panic button on the keypad then there is fire protection.

Reply to
Kid

how would using fire wire on a keypad be considered fire "protection" ? most fire systems don't provide protection...detection yes.

is there code on this?

Reply to
Crash Gordon

"Fire protection" isn't a "button" you have to be awake (or on the premises) to use. A sprinkler system is "protection". A smoke detector is "protection".

Reply to
Frank Olson

no, that is detection. and if you use the fire button the fire trucks will roll. still have to use fire wire if you use the fire button for fire protection is all I was saying. but feel free not to and then you can tell the inspector 'your' theory when he wants to know why you aren't within code..

Reply to
Kid

Sorry. When I think of "protection" I also think "detection" (you can't have one without the other in my book). You can't "protect" yourself with a button (and if the system's not monitored then the trucks won't be "rolling"). Taking your response one step further, I take it you would consider a cell phone or land line as better "fire protection" - you call 911 and achieve the same purpose as the button on a monitored alarm - only you get a faster response.

In BC, residential security systems aren't considered "fire alarm systems" so the Canadian installation standard (CAN/ULC-S524) doesn't apply. And some alarmco's in the lower mainland don't even pull permits. In fact they rarely install fire detection devices properly. On many take-overs we've done, I've seen "T" tapped smokes, EOL's across programmed fire zones IN THE CAN, four wire smokes wired using the normally closed contacts, etc. It's a real "dogs breakfast" here.

And no one has yet been able to show me the section of NFPA that states a security/burg system becomes a fire alarm system when you install a smoke detector (or wire up to relay contacts on a 110VAC smoke alarm).

Reply to
Frank Olson

sage

So is it your opinion that it is not-necessary to use fire wire for anything other than the detection devices themselves?

Dogs breakfast ????? Is that a poo reference?

Reply to
Effenpig1

essage

NEC70, Article 760 allows for the substitution of CMP and similiar for use in fire alarm systems unless local codes prevent it.

Regards,

Jewellfish

Reply to
jewellfish

..

I would think only sprinkler systems and the like would be protection.

Reply to
Effenpig1

sage

I don't think the NFPA decides. I believe the manufacturer decides whether the panel is a burg or fire/burg listed panel depending on what is hooked up to it.

For example, I use GE Concord panels

To become UL 1023 Household burglary alarm system unit listing I have to connect at least one wired or wireless contact and change some programming

For UL985 Household fire warning system listing I have to connect at least one wired or wireless smoke detector and change some programming.

Reply to
Effenpig1

Wouldn't there be a difference between fire protection equipment and life/safety equipment?

The way the discussion has gone has left me confused - would a pull station be fire protection or life/safety? Would it make a difference whether it triggered a suppression system, audio-visual alarm or both?

Reply to
JoeRaisin

message

Not only that, but 760-61 (b) exception 2 states FLP can be substituted for FPLR in 1 and 2 family dwellings for . 760-61 (table- d) shows that CM can be substituted for FPL. Every standard 22/2 and

22/4 burg wire I've ever used carried at least a CM rating.

So in reality, it would seem just about any standard CM wire is fine for fire devices in residential 1 and 2 family dwellings ( as long as you stay out of ducts and plenums).

I'm still sticking with FPL or FPLR, don't have to worry about where I can and can't run it, and people are less likely to mess with red wire ( I hope).

Reply to
Effenpig1

Reply to
Robert L Bass

IMO that's a wise decision. the cost increment is miniscule and it allows you to easily offer additional protection at a later date.

On multi-level prewires we used to do that plus we would also run spare multi-pair drops from attic and garage to basement utility (or wherever the panel would go).

Reply to
Robert L Bass

I have no opinion either way. You're obviously in the US and subject to a different set of codes and standards. Personally, I would go with what your local AHJ orders (or suggests) to satisfy both your and your insurance company's piece of mind (and get that in writing).

Nope. That comes from "the other end".

Reply to
Frank Olson

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