Vista 20P 5800 series wireless InSaNiTy!

d alarm company here. I've been installing/servicing t he Honeywell Vista series all the way back from the 10 /20SE days. Man, those were terrible panels. The 15/20 P is obviously much, much better.

ed in the 15/20P -- they make up probaly 80% of roughl y 5000 accounts we monitor, so I see the Vista 20P mul tiple times every day because I run service calls fixi ng what'd you'd expect: Broken switches, dead batterie s, the usual garden variety stuff. We have a massive a mount of 5800 series wireless stuff out there and I se e that every day too..

boast, but to demonstrate that I'm pretty darned sharp with the 5800 series wireless stuff on the V20P. I've seen every possible problem, or so I thought.....

with 5881 receiver (L, M, or H -- doesn't matter) is installed, up and running. There may or may not be har dwire zones installed. That does not matter. Presence of other devices like zone expander does not appear to matter either.

his problem, there have been numerous 5816 wireless se nsors enrolled and operating fine. There may also be w ireless smoke, wireless glassbreak, etc.

the system is up and running for a period of time --- I've not been able to determine how long, or even if t hat matters -- the system may begin to act erratically as if doors were opening/closing very rapidly, over a nd over. For instance, when a 5816 sensor is tripped ( by opening the door), the V20P displays the faulted zo ne approprately. When closed, the display shows approp riately. But within a few seconds, the zone will appea r to trip again and restore very rapidly. A few second s later, it may happen again, then restore. If clime m ode is on, the keypad will chime each time. Then, the zone may stay faulted for a seemingly-random period of time, then restore. Then it may work correctly for a while. But ten trip/restore again -- sometimes in rapi dfire display. It's quite the comedy to watch: someone opens the front door, for instance, and the keypad di splays and chimes as expected, then does it again and again and again in an erratic way -- as if someone wer e opening/closing the door very very fast, faster than a human being could possibly do it.

I have run into this, I have deleted the zone, and rel earned a new sensor, reasoning the sensor has gone won ky. But then, that one will also behave the same way. Learning it by tripping the sensor or by manually ente ring the serial number does not matter. The loop numbe r (internal reed or external contacts) does not matter either.

new one with a new sensor -- same thing.

e deleted all zones and started over -- same thing.

wireless zone, when the system is in learn mode, seemi ngly-random serial numbers will sort of "learn" into t he system over and over. None of the serial numbers di splayed on the learn screen are ones on the system. An d no, my service truck doesn't have any rogue transmit ting sensors in the trashcan in the back! :)

e learn mode behavior lead me to believe that a nearby system V20P -- maybe a next door neighbor -- is inter fering with programming. Honeywell tech support seems to believe that may be the right track, but they offer no further help along those lines.

t know why aready-programmed sensors would be affected in such a way that the weird run-mode behavior happen s. All I can think of is that there is some kind of wi reless data spamming from the offending neighbor.

all-new wireless on an existing Vista 20P: 19 5816 win dow sensors. So, to save myself time at the customer's house, I went ahead and put batteries in all the devi ces at the shop and got them ready for fast enrolling.

the customer's house, I found that I could not get AN YTHING to program. I had to take all batteries back ou t of them and then put them back in one-by-one while p rogramming each zone. My theory is that since they wer e all unprogrammed and, thus, unrecognized by the syst em, they were all talking gibberish to the V20P and th e receiver was rejecting all that noise and kind of fl ooding out with the nonsense. Only after each one was enrolled one-by-one did that system work properly.

fine but begin displaying the weird run-time behavior either after adding a single new wireless sensor, or a whole new system that just beings to fail on it's own relatively soon after initial install.

t thing. Normally on the 5881 receiver the red LED wil l flicker 4 times very rapidly when it receives any so rt of message from a sensor. If a 5816 sensor is tripp ed, the light will flicker. When restored, it will fli cker. That is normal behavior.

problem is happening, the red LED will flicker as expe cted when the sensor is tripped. But while the weird b ehavior is happening, the red LED is NOT flickering, w hich leads me to believe a sensor is not actually tran smitting anything to the receiver at that moment. It's as if the V20P system itself is roiled in some intern al turmoil.

and has any insight that could shed some light, I'd a ppreciate a reply!

Howd y, Try a good ground on the vista panel box.. with a ll the new "smart" electronic gadgets in modern homes

RF noise imposed on the clocking of the processor mig ht cause the random actions.. Your odd behavior only happens "after" a legitimate signal is received, "Ri ght"? Which would make me think the processor is acti ng normally but is then hijacked by random RF noise " hacking" the clocking data stream. (either in the ca binet or along the wiring from receiver to panel)

T his could be hard to pin point. But a RF spectrum ana lyzer might be able to spot RF noise sources in the immediate area..

RTS

alarm company here. I've been installing/servicing th e Honeywell Vista series all the way back from the 10/

d in the 15/20P -- they make up probaly 80% of roughly 5000 accounts we monitor, so I see the Vista 20P mult iple times every day because I run service calls fixin g what'd you'd expect: Broken switches, dead batteries , the usual garden variety stuff. We have a massive am ount of 5800 series wireless stuff out there and I see that every day too..

oast, but to demonstrate that I'm pretty darned sharp with the 5800 series wireless stuff on the V20P. I've seen every possible problem, or so I thought.....

-ish years I've seen a certain problem a handfull of t imes with V20P wireless. I've not been able to discove r the cause of this or any remedy. Honeywell tech supp ort is baffled and they can't offer any insight at all . Here is what happens.

with 5881 receiver (L, M, or H -- doesn't matter) is i nstalled, up and running. There may or may not be hard wire zones installed. That does not matter. Presence o f other devices like zone expander does not appear to matter either.

is problem, there have been numerous 5816 wireless sen sors enrolled and operating fine. There may also be wi reless smoke, wireless glassbreak, etc.

he system is up and running for a period of time --- I 've not been able to determine how long, or even if th at matters -- the system may begin to act erratically as if doors were opening/closing very rapidly, over an d over. For instance, when a 5816 sensor is tripped (b y opening the door), the V20P displays the faulted zon e approprately. When closed, the display shows appropr iately. But within a few seconds, the zone will appear to trip again and restore very rapidly. A few seconds later, it may happen again, then restore. If clime mo de is on, the keypad will chime each time. Then, the z one may stay faulted for a seemingly-random period of time, then restore. Then it may work correctly for a w hile. But ten trip/restore again -- sometimes in rapid fire display. It's quite the comedy to watch: someone opens the front door, for instance, and the keypad dis plays and chimes as expected, then does it again and a gain and again in an erratic way -- as if someone were opening/closing the door very very fast, faster than a human being could possibly do it.

have run into this, I have deleted the zone, and rele arned a new sensor, reasoning the sensor has gone wonk y. But then, that one will also behave the same way. L earning it by tripping the sensor or by manually enter ing the serial number does not matter. The loop number (internal reed or external contacts) does not matter either.

new one with a new sensor -- same thing.

deleted all zones and started over -- same thing.

ireless zone, when the system is in learn mode, seemin gly-random serial numbers will sort of "learn" into th e system over and over. None of the serial numbers dis played on the learn screen are ones on the system. And no, my service truck doesn't have any rogue transmitt ing sensors in the trashcan in the back! :)

learn mode behavior lead me to believe that a nearby system V20P -- maybe a next door neighbor -- is interf ering with programming. Honeywell tech support seems t o believe that may be the right track, but they offer no further help along those lines.

know why aready-programmed sensors would be affected in such a way that the weird run-mode behavior happens . All I can think of is that there is some kind of wir eless data spamming from the offending neighbor.

ll-new wireless on an existing Vista 20P: 19 5816 wind ow sensors. So, to save myself time at the customer's house, I went ahead and put batteries in all the devic es at the shop and got them ready for fast enrolling.

the customer's house, I found that I could not get ANY THING to program. I had to take all batteries back out of them and then put them back in one-by-one while pr ogramming each zone. My theory is that since they were all unprogrammed and, thus, unrecognized by the syste m, they were all talking gibberish to the V20P and the receiver was rejecting all that noise and kind of flo oding out with the nonsense. Only after each one was e nrolled one-by-one did that system work properly.

ine but begin displaying the weird run-time behavior e ither after adding a single new wireless sensor, or a whole new system that just beings to fail on it's own relatively soon after initial install.

thing. Normally on the 5881 receiver the red LED will flicker 4 times very rapidly when it receives any sor t of message from a sensor. If a 5816 sensor is trippe d, the light will flicker. When restored, it will flic ker. That is normal behavior.

roblem is happening, the red LED will flicker as expec ted when the sensor is tripped. But while the weird be havior is happening, the red LED is NOT flickering, wh ich leads me to believe a sensor is not actually trans mitting anything to the receiver at that moment. It's as if the V20P system itself is roiled in some interna l turmoil.

and has any insight that could shed some light, I'd ap preciate a reply!

Hi Airdorn ,

To confirm: 1) Only happens with Ademco Wireless items?? 2) installed in the same geographic area??

My f irst thoughts are (may help or not) that since it is w ith wireless items that there may be some RF transmis sion that is happening locally. Radar, Microwave, CB , TV, Radio, and any other "unknown" military or civi lian/alien radio transmissions. The only thing I can suggest would be to find someone with a "Absorption W avemeter" that might be able to tune in to see what h appens with the bandwidth during an event.

There ma y be other devices to see what is happening at or arou nd the

For me I had an issue trying to get some wireless window sensors t o learn into a Networx NX8 receiver a year ago. Noth ing worked. I thought I had a bad receiver. I left the property and later that evening the customer call ed me and asked if anything I did would cause his gar age door remote to stop working?? He could get it to work when he stood directly under the opener with it raised up in his hand.

Long story, short!! Turns o ut he had 3 neighbors with the same problem. After t rying to brain storm on the cause for 2 days just as quickly as it started it stopped. Opener worked Ok.

And was able to learn in the sensor with out a hitch. And has been working great since. Don't know what t he cause was and at this time don't care.

One othe r story. About 30 years ago the local police radio ne twork was down. Police contacted FCC and within 24 h ours found the problem with a house in the city that the owner had purchase a Christmas Tree music box of some kind that did not have a FCC rating. Was from " another place" on the planet. It was putting out some very bad RF and was close enough to the police radio tower to cause bad interference. Needless to say the toy was confiscated.

That is about all I have to h elp start the thoughts and some kind of troubleshooti ng maybe in a different direction. The problem you hav e will be difficult to find and correct. Hard wiring is ALWAYS the better choice.

Good Luck and by all means if you do find the problem please report back your findings.

There are a few other Old Pharts her e that will have there own stories to tell. You will just have to wait for them to respond. :-)

Have a better New Year!!

Les

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1. I've only had this problem with Ademco wireless , but out Honeywell wireless installs are vast, wh ile everything else is very small.
2. All of our installs are around a certain metr opolitan areas in the United States.
3. No idea if other companies have seen this pro blem

It's worth noting that the way we solved the pro blem the first time we ran into it about 2 yea rs ago was by completely removing the Honeywell eq uipment and replacing it all with DSC PowerSeries stuff. The customer has not had any problems since .

Thanks for your insights, Les. I plan on setting up a spectrum analyzer and taking a look at t he environmment next go-round. I'm pretty convinced that the problem is interference related, causing no ise levels to be high. I guess Honeywell tech su pport isn't really helping because to do so would probably expose some technical weaknesses to wirele ss tech that they really don't want to do.

Thanks again!

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RTS -

Good idea, I'm going to try that when I go bac k to the customer's house to address the problem .

Thanks for your insight!

if all your systems with problems have a receiver outside the panel box, you could try torid traps on the yellow/green wires going from the panel to receiver.. that might help with the RF on the leads..

RTS

to address the problem.

Hi Rocky, You (sorta) beat me to it. But great minds think alike! I don't and haven't used (Ademco) Honeywell products or wireless products s ince the 5600 wireless days. But Napco has an earth ground terminal on thei r receiver. So, to the OP Airdorn, I'd suggest try using an earth ground an d or a shielded cable on the wire between the panel and the receiver. (and possibly any other exposed wire ( have to experiment)) With regard to this happening randomly, if there IS a strong RF source in y our area such as a major airport or government base, etc. remember that eac h length of wire is (in effect) an antenna of sorts and makes grounding an d shielded cabling all the more important. And if those possible sources of RF ARE in your area, how do they relate geographically to where your alarm systems were installed? You can try 1000PF capacitors to ground at various points also.

Had a similar problem years ago with wired (not wireless) PIR detectors at miscellaneous locations. Motion detector of a couple of manufacturers woul d just sit there with no movement and go into multiple activations over a p eriod of time. I had to sit there for hours watching the detector before I witnessed what was happening. Shielded cable and tinfoil inside the case of the PIR cured it but we never did find what the source was. We suspected t hat it might have been a Taxi cab company's two way radios but we just didn 't have the resources to prove it.

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RTS:

Got an example of such a torid wrap? DO you me an like a ferrite bead or choke for RF?

Thanks!

yea thats right, some times a single pass through the bead will do, other times a couple of turns around the bead is needed. Usually the Q of the bead will decide the correct number of turns.. If your receiver is fairly close I'd guess straight through or 1-2 turns.. (close to the panel end of the run) If a longer run of wire try them at each end of the wire run..

Engineers will give you the long formula, I find it quicker to just experiment.. Like some others have said, you might tinfoil the receiver case (just don't block the antenna)

The aim is to reduce the stray RF getting to the processor..

Yes, I did this once a couple of years ago to get Video from an IP camera back to the NVR from a Lighted Sign at the road. There was no way other than trenching or wireless to get the signal there. Trenching would have cost an Arm and a Leg if not more and Wireless is a PITA. I used a pair of TP-Link Power Adapters and when the LED lights came on the sign at night the video went elsewhere.

The answer was to install Ferrite Cores on the AC power line. I got a pack of about 16 units that were split and I just snapped them on the wire. Don't remember exactly but I think it took about

The point of the above is that on the conversation Split Ferrite Cores could help with the Ademco Wireless challenge. But, it will take a bit of experimenting to get it right.

Good Luck!!

Les

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Yeah, I ordered some rf chokes.. half of the ord er came in... the other half is is USPS limbo. ..

Meanwhile, I sent a tech to simply replace the p anel. The thing is a very early rebranded Vista

Anyway, our tech replaced it and enrolled all the customer's wireless without issue thus far. Newer stuff may have better built-in spurious/interfering RF suppression. If it takes a dump then, well ... it's a good starting point anyway.

I'll keep everyone posted.

Sounds good.

Why don't you stop in occasionally just to see what (if anything) is going on? Some more questions, Some experiences. The regulars have been here so long we've just about exhausted our cache of experiences. We could use some more input to keep the group going.

Thanks

Depending on which DSC equipment, if you are using the older legacy sensors they operate at 433 mhz, the new PowerG stuff is 915 mhz and has far longer range and I doubt you will have interference problems

The DSC wireless is 433 mhz which is in the same range of a lot of other wireless devices, still might not have issues. I would have gone with a Neo using PowerG sensors, 915 mhz longer range (1 mile) and likely less issues with interference

Appreciate the up-date. Keep us informed if possible... Tks, RTS

Thank you for the info

I have not experinced this issue but have 5800 deployed mostly commercail installs but as others have noted all my installs are properly grounded. I also tend to install the receiver inside the vista 20P can which cuts down interference to board

I would think that would make it worse, while the enclosure can mount the receiver I've always used the external enclosure to the receiver away from the main panel