Vista 20 and IR motion problem

The what?? Sounds redundant to me Mr. Mensa candidate.

Reply to
Bob Worthy
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I think they had one called the Clip. About the size of a Bic lighter. WTF was that all about??

Reply to
alarman

They did/do have one called the Clip which is pretty small

Reply to
Mark Leuck

Jet?

Reply to
Mark Leuck

Now your're spinning worse than Obama

So you are saying you would spend less time on the phone if you didn't give useless answers?

Reply to
Mark Leuck

no, the Clip was stupidly small, the one I'm thinking about was maybe 1.5" wide and maybe 2" high...looked like a regular pir only smaller...not the clip or the eye spy thing.

Reply to
Crash Gordon

Obama's not spinning. He's winning.

You think so?

Reply to
Robert L Bass

May be the MR3000, half the size of a regular VRN2000

Reply to
A.J.

All right, I'll bite. I'm not very familiar with Napco or Elk panels. How do you do this?

Reply to
Nomen Nescio

Napco and Elk panels can tell the difference between family members and a thief AND can tell what direction they are going

Reply to
Mark Leuck

It's actually very simple. The first place I did this the customer wanted the system to disarm when he went down the stairs in the morning.

With Napco you need an octal relay board (8 programmable relays). ELK has similar products with 16 outputs. You can make the panel simply disarm when someone descends the stairs as follows:

1: Program a spare zone as a keyswitch zone without EOL (breaking the circuit alternately arms / disarms the panel). 2: Program relay #1 to follow armed status. 3: Wire C and NO of relay #1 across the keyswitch zone. 4: Wire C and NC of the PIR across the same zone.

Whenever the panel is disarmed the motion does nothing because relay #1 shunts the keyswitch zone. When it's armed, passing by the detector near the top of the stairs disarms the system. A motion detector at the base of the stairs triggers the alarm if anyone tries to go up. Other motion detectors, glass breaks and contacts protect the home in the usual manner.

With Napco, shunting the zones without disarming the panel is a bit more involved. Instead of a keyswitch zone, the motion detector is wired to a spare zone assigned to an unused "area" (Napco's word for a partition). A relay is programmed to throw if the zone is violated. This triggers a latching (DPDT) relay which shunts the motion zones. Diodes keep things sorted out between the zones.

This all works fine if the user doesn't mind disarming and rearming manually. To automate it, another PIR gets connected to yet another spare zone. Another programmable relay follows that zone's status to unlatch the DPDT relay.

Most customers neither want nor need anything this elaborate but every so often someone would ask us to solve a problem where the kids would get up at night or whatever. I puzzled over it for a while and came up with a solution. I'm sure if you wanted to spend the time you could come up with a more elegant method. With ELK you can just write rules for the detectors to make the system do whatever you want. The ELK-M1G is a full blown home automation controller though, and cost a bit more than Napco.

BTW, it's been a while since I did this and I may have left out a detail or two. If for some reason it really matters, ask and I'll draw a sketch.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

How long has it been since you did any installations?

How can the other devices protect the home when passing by the detector at the top of the stairs (descending) disarms the system?

I'll bet you sell a lot of relays to your DIYers. Better throw in a couple of utility boxes to house all of the relays, as well.

A solution that if one where to come downstairs in the middle of the night, started to watch the late show and drifted off, has now left the home unprotected. Good job Robert! Then there is the scenario of two people passing each other in the stairwell which could lead to either a false alarm or a system that didn't arm because of an open zone depending on who crossed which motion first. Hmmm.

Obviously

Why don't you do that for us so it can be added to the FAQ's

Reply to
Bob Worthy

I stopped installing for pay when I moved to Florida. I occasionally help friends and relatives out for free though.

If it's disarmed they don't. The second method bypasses the motion detectors if the client descends the stairs. If no one goes downstairs at night they remain active.

Most DIYers just want a standard alarm, similar to what you paid installers offer only more comprehensive protection and for less cost.

If one were to come down at night with any other design one would also have to bypass the motion detectors.

Thanks. :^)

If there was someone downstairs at the start they would have already disarmed the system or bypassed the motion detectors. Nice try, Bob.

There are no FAQs for this newsgroup. There's only a _proposed_ FAQ which one unscrupulous character from Vancouver pretends to uphold (all the while violating every line of it).

Reply to
Robert L Bass

So the second method is really the only method that should be considered since the first method actually disarms the whole system. At least that is what I am understanding from the first sentence of your top post here.

Yes I agree, however your first method stated that it arms and disarms the system, so maybe that one should not be consider.

On your first method, someone downstairs ascends the stairwell with the system disarmed. They pass someone in the stairwell descending, who under your method armed the system by passing through the motion at the head of the stairs. The person ascending the stairs now disarms the system when he reached the top of the stairs. Each are passing motions hence competing for status....I guess with followers, forced arming, delays or some other features it would work, but if it is arming and disarming the system each time someone goes up and down the stairs during the day there will be issues. Bypassing motions probably should be the extent of it.

Can't blame someone for thinking before applying.

Reply to
Bob Worthy

No, I didn't say that. I said there are two mthods that can be used. I've had clients who want their system to disarm automatically when they go downstairs in the morning. I've had others who want it to auto-bypass the motion detectors. Most clients don't want/need either option. The fact is that most customers don't really need anything "custom" -- just proper protection. But it is nice being able to accomodate thoose with special needs.

Yes, I said there are two ways to do it. The choice depends on what the client wants -- not some cookie cutter, one-size-fits-all solution.

Either you don't understand what I said or you're just trying to argue. Either method is totally unaffected by someone already being downstairs as the system would already be either disarmed or partially bypassed.

That's not how it works. Go back and read my original post.

Again, it depends on what the client wants. One DIY client of mine who did this installed a simple button at eye level near the top of the stairs. Touching it while disarmed would unbypass the downstairs. Touching it a second time did nothing. Passing the motion detector while descending the stairs would bypass the motion detectors. Passing it again did nothing.

There's another interesting design of mine using Napco controllers to protect Orthodox Jewish homes and synagogues. I discussed it here several years ago. In their situation, due to religious laws, the systems have to run themselves automatically during Shabbat and Yom Tov. I figured out a way, again using Napco's programmable relay boards, to make the systems disarm just before sunset on Fridays and on certain holidays (Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, etc).

Once disarmed the motion detectors' and glassbreaks' power was shut off until the appointed time. Then the system would auto-disarm again, just in case someone had manually changed it. Next the sensor power would restore. Then, after waiting several minutes for the detectors to stabilize, the system would be re-armed.

If the premises was residential the motions, etc., would remain powered down and the system would auto-arm (using auto-bypass of course) on schedule, usually around 11:00 pm when everyone was already home. On Saturday morning another relay would shunt the circuit to the Shabbas door so the family could walk to the synagogue. Once Shabbas was over (after sunset on Saturday) the family would manually control the system.

Again, these are custom solutions for specific problems and situations that the mass market, cookie-cutter players neither know how to do nor are interested in learning. I always enjoyed figuring out ways to do things most dealers didn't even try. Napco was impressed enough with some of my designs that they published a couple of them in their dealer newsletter many years ago.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

You are giving two different ways to do this, one of which disarms the system automatically, and one of which only shunts the downstairs IR zones. The zone shunting version I think I'd need to see drawn out, I don't entirely follow that from your description. However, I see one big problem with the automatic disarming version, if I understand you correctly:

Burglar trips downstairs motion. Alarm sounds. Burglar heads upstairs, crossing the arm/disarm motion along the way, and disarms the system. Alarm stops. Maybe even sends in a cancel signal.

And if I understand this correctly, under normal conditions the system does not rearm itself when the user heads back upstairs. That would be a drawback for a sleepy homeowner who heads downstairs at night, and remains unprotected from then on.

Reply to
Nomen Nescio

Thanks. As I said earlier, I may have left out a detail or two. :^)

When the system is in an alarm state the motion near the top of the stairs is shunted out by yet another relay.

The button at eye level does that in one arrangement. The others had to rearm at the bedroom keypad. I considered auto-arming on motion in the stairwell (i.e., when the homeowner ascends the stairs) but that would cause problems if someone simply went upstairs while others were still downstairs during the day.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

eads upstairs,

Yep, you're right.

He's got himself painted into another corner ....... again.

Reply to
Jim

This "system" of yours is a lot like your kludge site, Bass. Confusing, difficult to navigate, and full of ill-conceived ideas and misdirection. You're some piece of work.

Next you'll be telling us that you managed to program a Napco keypad "ready screen" to display: "Attention Burglar! Go ahead, make my day!".

Oh.... I now recall that you did that already.

Reply to
Frank Olson

Maybe you could use it for decorat> >

Reply to
Just Looking

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