using CAT5 for smoke detectors

Can't do it. NFPA72 says 18 gauge fire rated wire. I use 18/4 just in case we need to use 4 wire smokes in the future. I also use 18/4 for the transformer, and sirens. It keeps from stocking too many different wires on the truck. Please also note that if you use the fire keys on the keypad, that is considered a pull station. 18/4 for that as well. It sucks, but that's life.

Jim Rojas

I'm glad someone agrees with me on this subject. I always use fire wire for power, siren keypads and fire devices even if the system doesn't initially have any fire devices. I always did it in case I was asked to add fire protection to a system later, but if the fire panic button constitutes a pull station then I guess on the systems I never added fire protection to, the fire wire wasn't a waste after all.

An installer on another forum says he uses CAT5 for smoke detectors. To avoid nicks in the 24AWG and potential breakage, he strips the wire with his fingernails. Says he's been doing it for years. I had assumed CAT5 was not to code, hence my question.

Best, Christopher

IMHO, It seems there are more installers who do things the wrong way than the right way. Most of them can't be convinced of the error of their ways because, as you mentioned, They've been doing it for years. All it takes is one substantial loss with an investigation and it's all over.

Most proper uses of cat5 require the use of some kind of crimp on connector, which is kind of telling in itself. The conductors are too fragile too be stripped and put under terminals.

Agreed. Even if the stripping is nick-free, the force of the terminals can crush CAT5. Of course, Murphy will ensure that total failure does not occur until an actual fire.

Best, Christopher

Alot has to do with costs. I can't tell you how many newer ADT, Brinks, P-1 installs out there using standard 4 conductor for everything. Sure it's wrong, but there are no wire police (inspectors) that actually care, or just turn a blind eye. Many still use 24 gauge zip wire on new construction, and even intercom wire to keypads. If every job was required to be properly inspected prior to getting monitored, I doubt it that anything would change.

Just think about the cable companies. According to NFPA72, the installer is required to be a journeyman electrican to climb the same pole that the home's electric power is on, to make the final connections...but that always gets overlooked. I see these same bozos break out an all alumium ladder and lean it on the power poles. These guys break more OSHA safety rules than any industry I have ever seen, but life goes on. If there is a buck to be made, you can rest assured someone will look the other way, while the envelope slides across the table.

Jim Rojas

ok Frank. where is your post about how that is not a pull station? or won't you pull that on Rojas?

You just had to do it, didn't you?

I don't see anything about stripping the wires with your fingernails, tho... ;)

Jim,

Actually, NFPA 72 (2002-4.4.4.4) does not directly address wire size but redirects to NEC (NFPA 70).

Assuming we are talking power-limited circuits, NEC places the 18 gauge limit on single conductors. If you are running THHN or equivalent in raceway then the wire must be at least 18. However, in a multi-conductor cable, the minimum gauge is 26 gauge which would mean that CAT 5 would be ok, in that regard. Additionally, NEC (article 765) does certainly permit the substitution of general purpose cable for fire rated cable, so that, unless local amendments prevent it, regular CAT 5 could be used.

Not saying its a good idea, but it is allowed.

The only thing I use Cat5 for in a burg install is for the telco line.

Jim Rojas

Jim,

You are a wise man.

Jewellfish

A king must know these things. :)

It's there, second post. FWIW, using fingernails to strip wire for the purpose of avoiding nicks and breakage is really just an acknoledgement that

24AWG is not really suitable for a critical applications. Of course, opinions vary on the importance of fire safety and building codes and practices.

Years ago there was a store Tri-City Sporting Goods in Fremont, CA that covered several acres (now gone and replaced with housing). They had large steel gates at each of the major exits. Shoplifting was a problem, so they began padlocking some of the exit gates during business hours. Each exit had a large lighted EXIT sign over the locked gates. When I saw this, I mentioned it to one of the sales staff, assuming he would say, oops, we forgot to unlock those this morning. He said, and I'm not making this up, quote, "If there is a fire, I'm sure the manager will come and unlock the gate."

Well, I figured he was clueless, so I asked to speak to the manager. Would you believe I went all the way up the management chain, and no one would agree that it was a really bad idea to lock exit doors during business hours. I had to call the Fremont Fire Department to get them to change the policy.

Best, Christopher

I was in a waiting room while my mother underwent surgery at Sarasota Memorial Hospital a few years ago. The fire alarm system went off, releasing the magnetic door holders and closing the door to the room. A magnetic lock secured the door. I got up to look out in the hall and discovered we were locked in. There was no REX motion sensor and no Push to Release button anywhere near the door. Someone had installed a release button (non-UL, of course) at the volunteer's desk about 10-15 feet from the door. I asked the volunteer and of course she opened the door.

I notified hospital security (it's been a long time; I forget who I actually spoke to) about the code violation and the danger of locking people into an interior room during an actual fire. They did nothing. A call to the fire marshal got it remedied. I assume the same thing was done in other locations around the hospital. Hope they fixed them.

The first time I reported a lockeded exit door, I was shocked at the response. When you tell someone something so obvious, like, um, you forgot to put on your pants this morning before coming to work, you expect them to say, oh my gosh, I simply forgot, let me rush home and put on a pair. But no, they just stand there and declare that they are indeed wearing pants.

I'm no longer surprised. I notice a locked exit door every couple of years in this or that establishment. I no longer waste my time with management. I call the fire department and let them deal with it. They can get their attention, otherwise known as a citation. It's so unfortunate when we hear about fire tragedies that could have been easily avoided.

Best, Christopher

Hey... For Jim to say that, it must be (in Fohida at least). :-)

Have none of these people ever seen "Lean On Me"?

Jim Rojas wrote in news:j4P2n.3673$ZB2.1246 @newsfe13.iad:

Amen brother!

We did a lot of Napco systems over the years. Many of them were take-overs. Their RP1-CAe2 keypad has a built-in 4 zone expander. We would run CAT5 to those keypads because it was easy to run the zones back to the panel. If it was one of ours, we ran 22/4 from the panel and wired nearby sensors directly to the pad.

Windsor, CT, had a Fire Marshal who insisted that keypad and siren wiring be fire cable if the system included smokes. After the first run-in with him, we started using fire wire for keypads in Windsor. Everywhere else we ran standard

22/4.

Oh, one exception. I did a freebie for a church-affiliated drug rehab place in Rhode Island. We had to use 16-gauge for keypads, sirens, smokes and heats. A local electrician pulled the permits and "supervised" the job. Fortunately, he warned us in advance about the cable. I would have run 18/4 fire stuff otherwise. The inspector was *not* flexible. :^)

I lost count of how many 100 and 200 amp service entrance cables I replaced because the cable guys just decide to drill their hole next to it without checking inside first. I guess they can't fathom the idea that you can run entrance cable in directions other than straight ahead. If by some chance they missed the main they were still fond of drilling through various other wires. Of course they always do this at

3PM on a Friday.