Or..non-lethal..but way more expensive to fix is a fiber optic bundle.
| >> The hardest part of installing outdoor photoelectric motion detectors is | >> running the wire. Most of the time it's run below ground. A tool called | > a | >> "ditch witch" can cut an 18" deep by 2" wide trench for wire burial (be | > sure | >> to use cable that is rated for direct burial and check with your building | >> inspector for recommended depth of the trench to avoid damage due to | > ground | >> frost in winter). | >
| > Not to mention underground telephone, cable lines, electric, sprinkler | > systems, electric and anything else that might be in the way, when an | > unexperienced person grabs ahold of a ditch witch. Can be a dangerous tool | > for the novice. Be Careful If You Choose To Use This Type Of Machinery. | > Call | > For Locates. There are companies that will do the locates for you. Then if | > you hit something they will be responsible. | | | | Unless you hit an a/c svc line with a walk-behind trencher.... if so, your | widow will be responsible for finding out who was responsible for locating | the services. ;-) | |
Not only is it illegal to machine trench over or within 3 feet of a locate mark, it is considered incredibly stupid. There are very few utilities that are precisely the correct depth. We've found electric svc drops at 12", phone at 3". CATV and sprinklers are sure to get cut regardless. And you DON'T want to know what a cut gas or water line will do to a house if you damage it closeby. Most utilities are the right depth or deeper, but you really don't want to gamble with that kind of liability. Also, any svc utilities on one's property were likely put in by the contractor or subs, and are less likely to be at proper, uniform depth.
Some things are difficult or impossible to locate properly, such as PVC drain cleanouts, (a common thing in the yards of newer homes) gutter drain lines, sprinkler pipes, low voltage lighting wire, outbuilding a/c circuits, etc etc. Takes a trained eye to spot these things reliably, and a liability policy to ensure that they're fixed properly if damaged.
Even found a 3-phase subdivision feeder coming off a pole, down a riser, and UG, ostensibly 4' deep, which was located by hand at about 2 INCHES, in PVC conduit, in a road right-of-way about 30' from the riser, less than 5' from the first house's property line. The bozos couldn't figure out how to jackhammer through a boulder, I guess. Could have killed our shovel guy, and almost certainly would have killed the crew coming in to install the lighted rock wall and landscaping for the subdivision entrance the next week.
Another horror story- fiberoptic telecom cable. While this is usually found elsewhere, there ARE places where a right-of-way cuts through or between or abuts someone's property. This stuff is INCREDIBLY expensive to repair- it has to be spliced in a "clean-room" environment with a very expensive mobile setup. Cut a 1000 conductor fiber and you'll soon appreciate just how cheap professional liability insurance is. I knew of a contractor that did this in the late 80's, and they were fighting with the ins. co to determine the liability for a very long time.
Anyway, point is it isn't wise to tell folks to "go for it" until providing full, appopriate info and professional guidance. Even then, they should be aware that there ARE risks, both physical and financial. This is NOT like running a door sensor wire and hitting a 110V A/C circuit...
Exactly. Also, as long as you call first and don't dig between their marked boundaries you have zero liability if you hit something.
As to SB's comments, there's no high tension cable within the typical 18" depth he would use for low voltage signal cables. Stanley Barfbuckle's nonsense story of rocks flying out of ditches and drivers leaping off tractors is not only pur fiction. It's irrelevant. We're talking about little walk-behind units and he's talking about a tractor you'd drive on. Next thing you know FO will brag of jumping off an inverted 3500 because it levitated into an open-front, high voltage cabinet.
You're the one who boasted that your company did so.
Uh-huh, sure.
Like the one your guy was looking through when he hit the high tension line? You can't have it both ways, Barfbuckle. Either this stuff is easier than you claim it is or you and your coworkers are incompetent clods. Either way the client is better off DIY.
It's wiser than telling everyone to "hire a pro" to do simple low voltage work just because that's how you make your living.
Are you willing to put the statement "there's no high tension cable within the typical 18" depth he would use for low voltage signal cables." in writing, signed and notarized? If so, send it to the guy who sounds like he doesn't know a/c from dc and tell him to trench away...
PS- There are no "high-tension" wires UG. You moron. Those are the 18,000 V wires you see from large metal towers hanging from 4' insulators. You moron. Can't bury those UG. You moron.
Not only is my story 100% verifiable, since there were at least 8 people present, but there are many instances of electrical "explosions" throwing rocks, dirt, and other debris when a 3-phase is suddenly sent to ground. You're trying to argue with facts, Robert.
No, the tractor didn't come off the ground, or even move. The energy sent rocks out of the trench, along with pieces of what used to be the dig chain.
What you seem to be failing to undertsand is that the little walk-behind trenchers are much more dangerous to an operator than the riders. Why? Because your dumb penny-pinching ass is grounded when walking behind one, regardless of whether you are wearing rubber-soled shoes or not. With a rider, you at least have the option of jumping clear of the energized machine. When you are HOLDING ON to the damned thing standing on the ground, your ass is DONE if you hit a 600 VAC feeder line, and probably even hitting one or both hot legs of the 220V house drop. Period. End of story. Ever hear of DEW, you know-it-all fat slob Felon JO MF?
Yet another example of Robert telling someone who KNOWS what they are talking about that he knows more, even though he has ZERO experience in the area. Google doesn't make you an expert, Roberta.
A common rental walk-behind unit will trench 3' deep- I know, since I just rented one last Fall to replace a water service line at one of my rental properties, which I trenched 36" deep. Yeah, tell him it's a no-brainer so you can sell him a few items and make a few bucks. I don't have any problem with selling him equipment and giving him guidance, but telling him not to worry or consider hiring out the hard stuff is irresponsible. He needs to know the risks. This is NOT like running a siren in an attic.
We made mistakes- specifically, our operator made a mistake. I think he thought he could "sneak" over it if he trenched our 18" depth over what was supposed to be 36" minimum. He gambled and lost. Of corse, he claimed to have missed the locate, but it was clear as day, since 3-phase is located with different marks here.
Google it, Robert. You're a "google expert". I'm sure you'll find plenty of instances of shallow svc drops, because they are much more common than most people realize.
Trenching is simple. Doing it safely and without f****ng things up is difficult. We made mistakes, and paid the price. You argue with so many people that you don't even remember what you're arguing about, or the details involved, huh Sparky? Yeah- he's better off DIY trenching around his property. Uhuh. You believe this shit, don't you?
Don't have to "hire a pro", as I've said many times, idiot. Just have to be responsible and professional enough to lay out the real risks and drawbacks in an honest way. I CAN replace the transmission in my truck, but it doesn't mean I should, or that the guy at Autozone is being ethical when he says "it's no problem". It's his responsibility to caution me of the risks if he knows I've never done it before, and my decision to make as to whether I do it or not. Of course, since he's just selling me parts, like you, he has no interest in whether I do it safely or correctly- he just wants to push parts. That's what separates ethical people from gutter scum like you. I sell parts to DIY'ers all the time, Roberta- I also provide appropriate info and proper caution, and recommend professional HELP to the ones who seem to need it. Whether they heed my advice is up to them, but after I've provided it, I can sleep well at night knowing that I've done the right thing.
I haven't "made my living" with UG construction since '88 or '89, but you didn't remember that I stated the time frame since it's inconvenient to the "them or us" argument you are trying to build.
As you can see from the results of your posting, you are being "stalked" by an unethical parts pusher by the name of Robert Bass. His entire existance here is based on telling people lies so that they will buy parts from him. He will tell anyone who comes here looking for infromation, that they will find whatever it is they want to do an easy task. He's an inexperienced book educated parts pusher who work out of his home or from out of the country. He stocks no parts and simply makes money by giving people wrong or incomplete information and selling them parts shipped directly to them from distributors in their area. He has a long record of unanswered Better Business Bureau complaints, and is an agitator and argumentative jerk who misleads people into thinking he actually knows something about present day alarms sytems.
He has no license to install alarms systems because he's a convicted felon for threatening a family member with a gun. He's also responsible for someones death.
As you can see by the responses in this thread he has insulted and offeded numerous people in this Newsgroup and that he is a pariah in this group. It is strongly recommended that you avoid corresponding with him and doing business with him.
Were you born this stupid or did you have to work at it?
Su-u-ure it is. Uh-huh.
Have any of them snap-rolled a 737?
I didn't say that if your fictitious story had been true there would not have been an explosion. However, even if it had not been a lie it would not have thrown rocks 75 feet away.
That never stopped you.
You obviously didn't catch the reference, either because you never read FO's ridiculous stories of snap-rolling airliners and levitating ladders or because you're too dense to see it.
Nope. I've seen what happens when a metal object shorts a high voltage, underground line. There's a loud bang and a puff of smoke. A few inches of the metal is typically vaporized, along with some of the cable. There's nothing like an explosive force that would send rocks and bits of chain flying 75 feet away. Part of that is due to the amount of energy involved. Part is due to what happens to the metal device (in your silly story a cutting chain) which comes into contact with the conductors. It welds in place and vaporizes. It doesn't burst into pieces since there's nothing inside it to create explosive gas.
Do you know why trees sometimes explode when lightning strikes them? It's the water and sap (no, not you; the other kind) inside the wood rapidly turning to vapor. If the wood was old and dry like houshold lumber it would simply ignite -- like a house. No moisture inside = no explosion. Transformers are filled with an oily substance which helps transfer heat away from the windings. When the secondaries are shorted the oil heats up so fast it causes an explosion. I saw a 10 or 12 foot tall steel sliding board at the end of a pier in Ocean Gate, NJ take a direct lightning hit. Some of the metal was vaporized. Some turned to a cinder. None of it was sent flying because there was no explosion. The wooden pier beneath the slide suffered a different type of damage. Several of the wood pilings, which were water-logged (pun not intended) burst open like firecrackers.
What you fail to understand (among oh, so many other things) is that the trenchers don't reach high power lines and that they are grounded better than the operator.
I don't know about you but I don't drag my behind on the ground. I also understand (and you clearly don't) that electricity takes the path of least resistance to ground. My sneakers or work boots offer far better insulation than the metal trencher which is below grade (ie, grounded).
Let me know if you need help with some of this. It may be a little complicated for you.
With a rider you (well not you personally; I mean someone who actually has done this) also have a much greater chance of hitting a high power line due to the greater depth of the trench it digs.
An electrician friend of mine was asked to install ground lights on the front lawn of our church several years ago. In the process he did just that -- hit a high voltage line -- with a post hole digger. There was a loud bang as the transformer on thepole at the street exploded. There was also a puff of smoke from the hole. A few inches of the post hole digger were gone. The electrician? He was fine; didn't even get a tingle.
The Distant Early Warning system? Sure, it was installed decades ago but they probably didn't use trenchers.
Every time you lose an argument you resort to that sort of chldish gutter talk.
The ones I used to use would only go 24' or 30". They didn't have an oblong chain like the new models. Instead there was a large, rotating disk. However, if you had actually used one of them (even once) you would know that the depth is adjustable.
To anyone still following this thread- Trenching is serious business. It can be done with proper planning, but significant risks do exist. To deny the risks is foolish.
Can you? Probably.
Should you? Only you can decide after being presented with all the pertinent information. Only a fool, or a person with something to gain would say it's "simple" or "without risk".
I love to save money, but if I didn't have proper experience, I would find a friend who had some experience and utilize his/her expertise. Make friends with the guy at the rental place- anything to reduce the risks. Bass would have you believe that everyone except him is anti-DIY. Not so; DIY is a great way to save money, IF you are prepared and get all the facts. It's truly offensive to have someone who has ZERO trenching experience tell us that there is no physical or financial risk involved with underground trenching.
To anyone still following this thread- Trenching is serious business. It can be done with proper planning, but significant risks do exist. To deny the risks is foolish.
Can you? Probably.
Should you? Only you can decide after being presented with all the pertinent information. Only a fool, or a person with something to gain would say it's "simple" or "without risk".
I love to save money, but if I didn't have proper experience, I would find a friend who had some experience and utilize his/her expertise. Make friends with the guy at the rental place- anything to reduce the risks. Bass would have you believe that everyone except him is anti-DIY. Not so; DIY is a great way to save money, IF you are prepared and get all the facts. It's truly offensive to have someone who has ZERO trenching experience tell us that there is no physical or financial risk involved with underground trenching.
Do you really think anyone is still following this thread?
The same can be said of driving one's car. However, walk-behind trenchers are probably safer since they don't approach highway speeds. :^)
Fortunately, all pertinent information, including risks and operating instructions, is made available by most reputable rental agencies. Trenchers are like any other power equipment. You need to exercise proper care in operating them so you don't get hurt. Since you'll be digging above power lines and such it's wise to "call before you dig". Contrary to what one ill-informed individual has said, there's no fee for having someone come out and mark the area for underground utilities. Low voltage security cables don't need to be buried as deeply as high voltage cables so the risk of hitting one with the trencher is minimal if you use common sense.
On the contrary, it acually is a simple task operating trencher. Life, as a rule, entails risk.
DIYers tend to be self-reliant -- ask for advice if you don't understand something. While I make no effort to hide my financial interest in encouraging folks to consider DIY, the other gentleman (who hides behind a fictitious name like most of the people who pollute this newsgroup), doesn't admit that his real reason for trying to argue against DIY is personal animus. That shines through in the belligerant, vulgar talk which peppers his posts.
This can best be accomplished by renting from him. :^)
To anyone still following this thread- Trenching is serious business. It can be done with proper planning, but significant risks do exist. To deny the risks is foolish.
Can you? Probably.
Should you? Only you can decide after being presented with all the pertinent information. Only a fool, or a person with something to gain would say it's "simple" or "without risk".
I love to save money, but if I didn't have proper experience, I would find a friend who had some experience and utilize his/her expertise. Make friends with the guy at the rental place- anything to reduce the risks. Bass would have you believe that everyone except him is anti-DIY. Not so; DIY is a great way to save money, IF you are prepared and get all the facts. It's truly offensive to have someone who has ZERO trenching experience tell us that there is no physical or financial risk involved with underground trenching.
you might DIE but at least according to rlb there is no liability.
you can insulate yourself with all those boxes of condoms you brag about carrying around with you on your little "vacations"
Stanley Barfbuckle's
was that cabinet stuffed full of paper? from rlb wanting his EXcustomers to be informed about all that stuff that nobody ever reads except installers? if so it probably burst into flames and then bASS cooked some burgers for the tribe.
More information would be helpful on what you are trying to protect. Just a perimeter, look into photo beams. watch an area try outdoor motion detectors.
There are many ways to secure an outdoor area, but all have drawbacks and could possible lead to a higher false alarm rate if not tailored to your situation. So can you give a little more background on what you are trying to protect?
Also if you have read the flame sessi> My need is to monitor the perimeter of an outdoor area.
Whew! After wading through all the "dialog", it's nice to get back to the original discussion. The actual area that I want to monitor is small. For example, take a stake in the ground, attach a ten-foot rope and walk a circle around the post. You have a circle with a ten-foot radius. Now replace the ten-foot rope with a twelve-foot rope and repeat the process to create a concentric circle with a twelve-foot radius. The difference between the two circles, two-foot of radius is the area that I want to monitor. Anyone walking into the two-feet wide perimeter is who I want to recognize. Consider it the demilitarized zone around the inner circle. In my original posting, I mentioned the parking sensor system on a BMW auto. It indicates when someone approaches the car and gets within two or three feet of it. The car is replaced by my inner circle, the area I want to protect. The catch is, people are allowed to walk through the outer circle and into the inner circle. Therefore, the sensors can't hinder their progress. I just need to know when have approached the inner circle by passing through the demilitarized zone. I believe the BMW uses ultrasonic sensors with a moderately focused beam, but I don't know that for a fact. However they are sensing objects, it is a fairly solid system with few false alarms. I originally was thinking of using wireless motes interfacing with the sensors to form a mesh network, but rethinking the process will allow for wired sensors. That will help with power consumption of the sensors themsselves and simplify the controller monitoring the sensors..
One final issue is that it won't always be a nicely-formed circle. They can have odd shapes, kidney, oblong, ... so there positioning of the sensors to achieve overlap around the perimeter will vary.
If I can find a reliable sensor like the auto uses, I'll be in business.
It would still help to know you are trying to protect. A building? An outdoor landscaped area? A pond? Don't know how to respond without knowing what it is.
I would be monitoring outdoor landscaped areas. They could contain ponds, waterfalls, ... They will vary in size and shape so there is no well-defined perimeter that is consistent from one installation to the next. The perimeter will more often than not be finished with stone or concrete rather than natural grass and soil.
Infra red barriers would be an option if the shape of the perimeter was symmetrical but it will often not be that way.
Per my previous post, I was thinking of trying ultrasonics mounted at the perimeter of the inner circle, pointing toward the outer circle. I would have to space them close enough so their sensing patterns overlap to guard the entire perimeter.
That's going to be a tough one. Never heard of a product that was designed for what you are trying to do. The automobile backup sensors have never been used for security purposes that I'm aware of. Once upon a time, ultrasonic volumetric sensors were used INDOORS for space protection- quite unreliably, I might add.
The key here is that you're trying to protect a narrow, curving strip of perimeter area, and don't want any gaps. (in other words, spot protection won't work) A reliable technology that provides proper catch performance while eliminating false alarms in an outdoor area is going to be quite a feat. If someone comes up with a viable, real world solution, and not just an idea on paper, I'd love to hear about how they did it.
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