store system w 4-8 cameras ?

I guess we all struggle for the lower end price point gear for certain jobs. Thats why I tried the Video Insight stuff originally. Usually I build one up with their lastest software every year to see if it has improved enough for us to sell. I never find it very appealing and that is disappointing because I am always hopeful that it will finally make it. In addition to the reasons you mention in your post about the Video Insight application being a resource hog that takes the system to its knees under load, it has an otherwise unrefined look and feel. The video grabber hardware lacks its own processing ability so the CPU gets overloaded and frames drop (at best) or the system freezes up (at worst). It lacks POS integration (other than ad hoc), it is not really OPC and no major access control vendor interfaces with it. For the most part it appeals to IT guys that see it as a computer (project) with a Microsoft .Net interface that they understand, so they like it. They seem to think it does what they think a DVR should do (because they're not in the security business for the most part) and have nothing to compare it to. It is a niche market item not a real main stream unit for anyone in the security marketplace in my opinion. There are hundreds of brands of DVR units, some for the build it yourself crowd and just becuase I don't like some brand doesn't mean that someone else won't love it. However our company has spent a great deal of time and money narrowing down DVR units it will sell and support. For brands of gear we use now it is Verint (yes I know they hog big box sales like Home Depot for their own) at the very high end (for video analytics, access control integration and for support for hundreds of cameras on one system), although there are some development issues for Nextiva versus LVM 4.51 (not to mention the damn strange ways it "grooms" video - I can't get used to that), then Bosch DiBos

8.x for general purpose analog and/or IP cameras (for alarm system integration and easy IIS web interface), Intellex 4.0 (NOT 3.x anything! those are great boat anchors), only the Ultra not the LT, (for access control interface ability), and at the low end Electronics Line for POS integration ability, but the sales force never seems to spec those EL units in their bids so they don't get sold. Other than EL our company sold well over $500k of these DVR units (you don't have to sell too many Verint systems or Intellex Ultra Units to get to sales totals in the hundreds of thousands of dollars) alone in the past year. I wouldn't run away from an I3 DVR (the license plate and human recognition features are great if you need them - but a bit bleeding edge) and I suspect you would be far happier with the I3 DVR brand versus one from Video Insight. If you are a high volume dealer and aren't afraid to pony up the 50k annual minimum you can build up COTS units with Verint gear (if you like the build your own thing). If you're into computers, like it sounds like you are from your post, Verint Nextiva comes with MOM, SQL 2000 (soon 2005) server and all of the other Microsoft stuff you might love (or love to hate). Most any of these DVR units I mentioned we sell, whether COTS built or factory built DVR's, have feature sets, stabilty and interfaces that are truly miles beyond Video Insight, but that's just my opinion (based on years of experience).

"Matt Ion" wrote in message news:8SuSg.60314$1T2.23760@pd7urf2no...

Well, YMMV... we've sold a couple dozen VI systems now, all to very satisfied clients (the ones that DO have issues, they tend to be either PC hardware-based problems unrelated to the DVR components, or their virus/malware problems because some fool decided the DVR would make a nice web-surfing machine).

We also sell and service Camacc VIGIL systems, that use essentially the same capture hardware, and have a lot more "neat" features, but also cost twice as much. Don't even get me started on the Capture IDR systems at 3-4 times the price of a VI setup...

Roland Moore wrote:

CIF stands for common image format and is one way that video resolution can be stated. Some manufacturers use other descriptors such as D1. To compare different units, it's simpler to just look at the resolution expressed in pixels. There's a catch with resolution vs. frame rate. Many units only offer the best resolution at lower frames per second settings. Image quality is many times more important than the numbers of images recorded in a second.

7.5 IPS does not look like real time. Most people see 15 to 20 IPS as fluid. Generally, 30 IPS is accepted in the industry as "real time" video and compares to watching television. However, 7.5 has become the standard for many high security applications and will almost always yield usable images in general security applications.

The requirements for higher frame rates are also a funtion of field of view vs. the targets speed. Fast moving objects in a relatively narrow field of view can create the need for higher frame rates.

High quality units can display 30 IPS per channel. Most people do not need this, but with the cost of HDD storage being relatively cheap, it's nice to be able to offer "real time" video for those who want it.

You need to know what you need to see, in

DVR's were used in the security industry for a few years before they became commonplace as consumer electronics. These security specific DVR's combine a muliplexer with an internal hard disk drive and usually some type of archiving device. Most also include a network interface card and free remote software so that the unit can be accessed offsite. The built in multiplexer allows the DVR to record mulitple cameras and display several cameras at a time. Most will allow you to record and play back video at the same time. Embedded DVR's are generally much more reliable than Windows-based PC's with user installed capture cards. Here's some recommendations:

That's true if the PC is a purpose built machine dedicated to running only the video application and nothing else. Oh, you also need to make sure you have all the up to date security patches and you running good antivirus software. Oh, also you need to worry about future service packs not being compatible with your current video software. Oh yeah, make sure that nobody else has access to the machine. You can't run the risk of them installing rogue software or trying to surf the net on your video machine. Of course, since your building your own recorder, you won't have any type of warranty or service contract, so you probably ought to build a spare just in case. Give me a break.

Sorry, I had checked in my newsreader (OE) and it didn't go back years so didn't find a recent answer : just lots of dated "he said" /"she said". I thought perhaps it had been resolved by now. I checked google as you said and only found what looked like ongoing battles ending in statements like:

"Take 2 more little yellow pills and send me 5 bucks in the morning you moron. "

So I guess I'll go wired - thanks.

Good choice! You had the answer all along.

Well, yes...

Only if you're hooking it up to the Internet. A good hardware firewall is preferable to all that extra baggage software - if you're not surfing websites, there's not really any way for anything to make its way into the system. If it's truly running as a "dedicated" machine, that shouldn't be an issue.

That's why I never have auto-updates enabled on a DVR.

That holds true of any video surveillance recording system.

You have some sort of philosophical issues with PC-based DVRs?

It's just a convenience store, right? Why on earth wouldn't you hardwire it? js

In a word, yes.

I deal with a lot of medium to larger size facilities that almost always have their DVR's connected to a network. If you do not connect to a network, then you lose a lot of the functionality of having a digital solution. When you use a Windows PC as a DVR, you bring along all of the baggage associated with Windows. Each time a new exploit is found, Windows must be updated to control it. If you connect to a network without keeping up to date on security patches and service packs, the machine will become vunerable. Add to this fact that a PC based machine can and will be used by associates for other purposes and reliability suffers even more.

There are two types of PC based machines. Factory built DVR's that come as a unit complete with a warranty vs. a user built off the shelf PC with a capture card and user installed software. I have no problem with the former. We've used DVR's and NVR's from AD, Bosch, Pelco, Verint, etc that are PC based and relatively free of issues, although embedded recorders such as GE/ Kalatel units do seem to be more reliable. My problem is with user built DVR's where some guy takes an off-the-shelf Dell and puts a capture card and some software on it and calls it a DVR. Windows, although improved in recent years, is still not the most stable platform for running critical applications.

A small list of problems I've seen with PC based units never encountered with embedded DVRs:

Version conflicts Security patches Network worms Guards using box to surf the internet (viruses, spyware, malware, etc) Windows update incompatibility Blue screen of death Power interupt/ shutdown issues Software conflicts caused by other programs running on PC

Umm, that's not a failing of PC-based DVRs... that's a failing of WINDOWS-based DVRs on an unsecured or improperly secured network. Or more specifically, a failing of an IT department. If a "medium to larger size" company doesn't have a firewall between their network and the internet, and the proper security in place. ALL their computers are volnerable, not just their DVR. If they DO have a firewall, the systems are pretty much invulnerable to direct outside access... and as long as all the other systems are kept up-to-date with security measures (patches etc.) and aren't infected, there's no real way for the DVR to be affected unless someone's surfing the web on it... in which case you have other issues.

Out of all the Vigil and VideoInsight DVRs I've installed and/or serviced, I've only seen TWO actually fail because of Windows issues, and both, though designed and built ONLY as DVRs, were used by their owners or employees onsite for surfing the web (one guy even installed a couple games, since the DVR machine was more powerful than his office PC). Again, that's not a failing of PC-based designs, that's a failing of STUPID PEOPLE. And as we know, hydrogen and stupidity are the two most common elements in the universe.

I've had ONE PC-based DVR fail because the CPU fan died and the whole thing overheated... any others that have died have been because of failing hard drives, which can happen to embedded machines just as well as PCs.

Oh, and one where the video card died because the new owners on the site decided to test the backup generator by just throwing the switch on the main building power, and generated a nice power spike. They killed the system drive in the replacement machine by doing the same thing again two months later, despite LOUD warnings (unheeded) to put the thing on a UPS. But again, that's just human stupidity; I've seen just as many standalone DVRs, as well as MUXs, VCRs and cameras, killed by power spikes.

PC-based DVRs are no more or less INHERENTLY reliable than any other type of video-recording system... they may be easier for (l)users to f*ck up, but that's a side-effect of ease-of-use.

With what? I've seen the Vigil client complain if it's connecting to a different revision of server, but it still works.

Shouldn't be necessary on a properly secured network. Vigil machines still run on Win2K; my VI machines run on a pretty bare-bones XP with all unnecessary services disabled. And not so much an issue with non-Windows-based (Linux, BSD, and others) DVRs.

There's no accounting for the human factor. How about this one: late-night employee decided to review footage for the hot blonde who was just at the counter, the forgets to restart recording, because the cheap standalone unit is a simplex design.

So don't use automatic updates. Not necessary on a properly secured network. And again, not an issue on non-Windows-based DVRs.

Never had one of those on a DVR.

That can affect ANY recording device, PC, standalone, or VCR.

In fact, PCs are able to BETTER handle those instances if they're on a UPS with the proper support installed, because a UPS can trigger a clean shutdown of the PC if the battery runs low after power has been off a while.

There shouldn't be any other programs running... again, a human failing, not a design issue, and not really a problem anyway with non-Windows machines. Even with, it's not that difficult to lock down the machine to prevent installation and use of other software. Capture's machines run their own shell over the Windows desktop and lock out most key combinations, such as ctrl-esc, strl-alt-del, etc. With password-protected shutdown, it's virtually impossible for an unauthorized user to access the desktop or run any other software.

It is easy to see the PC in many DVR units. That said some DVR units are more PC than others. One beef (of too many to mention) I have with VideoInsight is that they won't create a COTS spec for their grabber card and create a Windows XP Embedded OS to go with it (they won't even suggest a policy editor template for OS modification or even msconfig). The developers of the product were honest enough to tell me that they lack the sales volume to be able to even begin justify such a move. And a 100% fully automated recovery CD? Not on your life. Auto throttle bandwith with QoS? That's always coming in the next release. Many people get confused about the term embedded OS and say one thing when they actually mean another. Nearly all build it yourself units run on some form of Windows OS. No matter what kind of Policy Editor you use it will still be that version of Windows at the shell. Many DVR units use Windows XP Embedded (more information here

) others use an embedded OS. According to the Microsoft Embedded site Microsoft Windows XP Embedded provides the ability to build a customized operating system image which contains the components and technologies that are appropriate for your specific device. One thing you should never do is apply XP Pro patches to XP Embedded. If you can't tell one from the other the splash screen after the POST shows XP Embedded and there is always the tiny XP Embedded sticker (versus the much larger XP Pro sticker) on the case to point out the difference. Some Integral Technologies units and Bosch DiBos units use Windows XP Embedded, some units like Dedicated Micros use an embedded OS (at least that is their description). Some units like Dallmeier and March Networks use a Linux OS, although not the same distribution. Some units like the Intellex use a highly modified Windows OS that is almost XP Embedded (on version 4.x), but it is really just an odd duck. I'll say it again, if you're a computer guy discovering CCTV then getting a grabber card and building you're own unit seems cool. If you're a security guy, or more specifically a systems integrator, you won't have time to build your own. The puny margins in building your own DVR would never be worth it. If you are thinking about supporting an up the Coax PTZ (Bosch PTZ units, Panasonic PTZ units or Pelco PTZ units to name a few) with Bilinx (Bosch) or using BiPhase (Bosch) to support a different protocol, no build it yourself unit would ever be an option. And we haven't even mentioned access control integration, POS integration or an Aegis interface (developed by KapLogic Corporation). If you are using professional camera gear like Bosch Auto Domes or AD Ultra few cusomers are going to consider it a plus to cheap out and have you drag in some weird ass home built PC no matter how you try to promote it as a DVR. If you do a dozen or so simple mostly fixed camera DVR deployments a year that never interface with anything else maybe you have found your calling with build it yourself. When you walk into a major sports arena or giant medical center and think about a DVR solution to deploy the build it yourself option never crosses your mind, ever! Well, if you're going to check yourself in at the Psych ward in medical center maybe. In my opinion if you ever aspire to serve those sorts of large customers in the future in that type of upper end market segment you should not afflict your current customers with the crippled limitations of build it yourself, leave that for the box sale guys or the lame IT guy with too much time and no budget.

"Matt Ion" wrote in message news:9yaTg.70351$R63.30733@pd7urf1no...

Well said. As a matter of fact, I just got a phone call from a

600,000 sq ft plant/ warehouse where we did the fire alarm about a year ago. The owner's buddy set them up with two home built DVR's and a bunch of bullet cameras. We've now been asked to evaluate and replace their equipment. They've got 32 channels of low end video from $80 bullet cameras runn>It is easy to see the PC in many DVR units. That said some DVR units are

Yeah, just keep in mind this thread started about wanting a setup for a small mom-and-pop store. They don't need or want a $50,000 industrial-stength video system.

J.

Sticking to the thread just doesn't allow the poseurs among us the opportunity to demonstrate how knowledgeable they are on irrelevant issues.

Doug

The DiBos Micro has support for 6 (or 12) cameras and would work fine for small mom and pop store. It wouldn't break their budget either.

That type of application is exactly what most embedded DVR's are made for. An Intellex EDVR or a GE SDVR would be a better product for most customers. I guess home built DVR's are sort of like kit cars or homemade airplanes. Maybe they'll work okay, but most people want a purpose built machine and a warranty/ service plan from a reputable company. How does someone get a loaner or an advance replacement on a homebuilt DVR?

I haven't tried an Intellex EDVR yet. It's still a little too new. The price is down there and the AD rep says they're okay after a year or so in BETA but who do you believe, the rep? I haven't tried the GE stuff either, other than the old Caliber stuff. I am afraid to quote it and then brush up against a big GE SP doing the same. If the competition is someone that gets their parts through distribution you know what they pay, but if you're bidding against a big GE SP with a vertically marketed end user, I doubt you could even buy it for what he would be willing selling it for just to get you out of the picture. To play with GE doing a part here and a part there could get you killed. To be sucessful with GE I think you have to be whole hog GE or not at all. After the Infographic Systems foul up I am still too chicken to do the whole hog thing. Sometimes I like to pretend I am important to certain vendors in the industry. I don't think anyone could reach that size with GE in our industry to actually be important. That said working with no clout and to keep the GE sound rep happy for the PA and nurse call stuff, and the GE Fire rep happy to get EST, and the GE security guy happy to get Cassi/Infographics is a big political undertaking. A multi-million dollar company to the GE giant doesn't even register as a virus in the monster's toe jam. If they destroy your company don't take it personally, they won't. They're so huge there is nothing mere motals can do to influence them. For example you say to GE that you don't like alarm.com. Too bad. Complain to GE that tech support calls take a little too long to answer. Okay we'll chop another 500 dealers. Oh, that was you we wacked! Too bad. Some of the old pre GE Topaz/Infographics crew bailed on GE rather than face the music with their hundreds of former dealers. To quit after 15 years at a place due to policy changes at the top says something. But I think GE doesn't understand the security industry and doesn't seem to care to. What is important is they're big enough so they really don't have to. Other large companies like Bosch, Honeywell, JCI, Tyco and United Technologies have bought their way into the security industry and done things the way folks were used to for the most part. But with GE the security industry will simply have to adjust to GE. I wish I could say that the GE tail was wagging the security industry dog, but it's really not. That worries me.

"J. @netscape.net>" On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 15:41:57 GMT, Matt Ion

Whether the homebuilts are able to do the job or not, as with burg and/or fire systems, the local inspectors are hitting us with UL listings on the DVR's. Where does the listing come from, on one of the homebuilts? The listing on the orginal machine, if it has one, goes away once it has been rebuilt to suit. Just using listed parts does not cut it. The listing is based on the assembly. What does that do for a defendants case, even if the homebuilt is able to somehow produce a watermarked piece of evidence, other than leaving a large hole for the defendants attorney to walk through?