I am replacing an old Radionics with a new Vista 20P. A VOM indicates that the Radionics EOLR value is 1K. The Vista 20P expects 2K. The wiring was installed during construction of the home, and replacing the installed EOLRs is likely not an option. What is the recommended solution? Put another 1K in series at the panel?
Best, Christopher
I found the EOLRs. There is a small faceplate below the old Radionics, so I opened it and found a rats nest where all the wires come together. As best I can tell, the zones with multiple sensors are wired in parallel just below the panel, and the 1K EOLR is also added just below the panel. Doesn't this defeat the purpose of an EOLR? Isn't this really just a BOLR? Also, if an EOLR is at the panel for a fire zone, is this to CA code?
Best, Christopher
The end of the line *could* be in the panel if the installer wired it right.
Devices wired in parallel (normally open or N.O.) can be wired using a four conductor, two wires start at the panel, go out to each device and return to the panel where the resistor is placed. You can do the same thing with series devices but the wiring is a bit more complicated.
Simple test to see if your N.O. devices are supervised is to remove one leg of the circuit at the device. if you get a trouble condition you're okay.
In fact, it might be a good idea to do that to all the devices, one at a time to see if you have circuits that are "T-Tapped". If you do, and can't re-run the circuits, the only way to really supervise it would be to use addressable devices - Unless I'm mistaken, that's not something you can do with a vista-20 (though I do like the panel - I have the First Alert 168CPS in my own home).
Quick question - do you have fire protection other than the smoke detectors connected to this panel? If not, I suggest at least a few from the hardware store while you work this through. I know it seems like overkill for the day (or few days - since it sound like you have rune into a typical upgrade.takeover situation - FUBAR'd) you will be without coverage but, as I have said before, don't leave your family unprotected for even one night - one night is all it takes and you will have to live with the "woulda, coulda, shoulda".
------------------------------------- Are you sure you are using the right panel for this application? The place was never wired properly by all appearances.Meeting code is going to be a real issue. What kind of wire was used , is it a four wire because if it is you only need two (unless you have 4-wire smoke detectors)in that case if you have extra wire you can wire each device with a feed pair and a return pair. If it is all in 2-wire your only real solution would be to use zone expanders to cover each device( 4219's and they use 1K resistors ) or upgrade the panel to one with a polling loop and use modules (4193sn)which would be a better fit but also more costly.
Had a similar situation with a comm job with a radionics and that's what I did put the V Plex in to solve supervision problems.
EOL's are useless for residential burg systems unless you use the proper contact. A standard normally closed contact will not work unless each contact is on its own zone, and the EOL is inside the contact.
On a commerical contact both the normally open and normally closed is used to supervise the wire at all times. The contact then triggers an alarm on a short, but show a trouble on an open circuit. This is the proper way for EOL usage. You can place the EOL's at the panel, but on a commercial applications, this means that the last contact returns back to the panel.
Zone + ---> C NC ---> C Zone - ---> NO ---> N0 ---> NO ---> EOL in field NC ---> C NC ---> EOL
OR
Zone + ---> feed to 1st contact Zone - --->
EOL -
The EOL for a smoke alarm must be at the last device.
If you are using 2 wire smokes, you can use 2 wires, then EOL at last smoke. All smokes must be daisy chained for proper supervision...
2 Wire SmokesFire Zone + ---> + in + out ---> + in + out ---> + in + out ---> EOL Fire Zone - ---> - neg ---> - neg ---> - neg ---> EOL
If you are using 4 wire smokes, the same is true with the addition of using a power supervision relay at the end of line. With 4 wire smokes, do not twist wires together, even though the are going on the same terminal. This provides better supervision against tampering.
4 Wire SmokesFire Zone + ---> C ---> C ------------------------------> EOL Fire Zone - ---> NO ---> NO ---> Relay Closed Contacts ---> EOL Power + ---> + ---> + ---> Relay coil Power - ---> - ---> - ---> Relay coil
Jim Rojas Technical Manuals Online!
Jim wouldn't the 4 conductor return as Joe was saying be the same as a class A so long as the resistor was in the cabinet of the control? (just asking)
RTS
Christ> I found the EOLRs. There is a small faceplate below the old Radionics,
The EOL for a smoke alarm must be at the last device.
If you are using 2 wire smokes, you can use 2 wires, then EOL at last smoke. All smokes must be daisy chained for proper supervision...
2 Wire SmokesFire Zone + ---> + in + out ---> + in + out ---> + in + out ---> EOL Fire Zone - ---> - neg ---> - neg ---> - neg ---> EOL
If you are using 4 wire smokes, the same is true with the addition of using a power supervision relay at the end of line. With 4 wire smokes, do not twist wires together, even though the are going on the same terminal. This provides better supervision against tampering.
4 Wire SmokesFire Zone + ---> C ---> C ------------------------------> EOL Fire Zone - ---> NO ---> NO ---> Relay Closed Contacts ---> EOL Power + ---> + ---> + ---> Relay coil Power - ---> - ---> - ---> Relay coil
Jim Rojas Technical Manuals Online!
Yes, or course. But using standard NC contacts defeats the purpose intended.
Jim Rojas Technical Manuals Online!
Yes, in addition to the powered smokes attached to the panel, there are bettery smokes in almost every room in the house.
Best, Christopher
It is two wire smokes and they used four wires to bring the EOL back to the panel. The smokes are model 2100TD.
I did the following measurements.
- Voltage at panel across 8 and 9 without smokes is 13.6 VDC
- Voltage across 8 and 9 with 2K resistor is 13+ VDC. Panel works fine with resister.
- Resistance across red and black fire wires is 2K.
- Voltage across 8 and 9 with smokes attached is 13+ VDC
- Voltage across EOLR is 13+ VDC
- Voltage at smoke is 13+ VDC
I guess the next step is to separate the smokes and test one at a time. Any other suggestions?
Best, Christopher
I would leave the wiring alone for the moment. Take down one smoke at a time and verify how its wired. If the EOL is at the panel, then you should have that color pair spliced right through each smoke.
For Example: Red & Black feeds from one smoke to the next. It then returns back from the last smoke on the green & white pair.
If this is the way it is wired, you are ok with the EOL at the panel.
Jim Rojas Technical Manuals Online!
Not really. With one break in the line, a class A circuit would still be able to get an alarm signal from any detector on circuit. The EOL in the can will still result in losing any devices past the break.
It's just that we used to prewire complete circuits with four conductor just in case something happened to our wire.
The Radionics uses 2K EOLR for fire and 1K EOLR for alarm. The Vista uses
2K for both fire and alarm. I replaced all the 1K alarm EOLRs with 2K EOLRs and all the alarm sensors are now functioning on the Vista.The Radionics D2112 uses powered two-wire 2K EOLR on the fire zone, so I did not have to replace that resistor. However, the Vista 20P panel still indicates a fault on the fire zone (The Radionics did not report a fault prior to removal). I have checked polatiry (positive on 8, negative on 9) and tested voltages at the panel, at the smoke, and across the EOLR. All are 13+ VDC. The resistance of the fire circuit is 2K.
There are two fire devices wired to the panel. One is a System Sensor
2100TD smoke and the other is a Potter VSR-SF waterflow alarm. Four-conductor fire wire runs from the panel to each fire device, red/black powered outgoing and blue/brown return. The return pair of the first is wired to the outgoing of the second. The second return has a 2K EOLR.Question: Are these two fire devices compatible with the Vista 20P?
Best, Christopher
That's correct. Having the end of line in the can is not a class "A" circuit. It's still class "B". A class "A" circuit will recognize alarms and supervisories from any device on either side of a single "break" in the circuit and doesn't use end of lines. An end of line in the can using normally closed contacts won't provide the necessary supervision on the circuit (you'll still be able to jumper out a surface mounted contact with no one being the wiser). On commercial installs you should be using contacts with built-in EOL's or ones that use NO/NC contacts as Jim has mentioned if you have more than one contact on a zone. On high security residential jobs, it may also be wise to go this route. GRI custom manufactures contacts with a variety of EOLR values (don't know about Amseco and don't even mention Tane).
I seem to recall you have to cut a jumper in the Vista 20 for zone 1 to be a supervised fire circuit. Mind you, my memory could be faulty. :-)
That supervises the siren circuit
YKB. What I said... Memory's not what it used to be... :-)
Jesus Frank, who does the colors on your website?
From the website:
Acknowledgments This website would not exist but for the inspiration and encouragement of a few dedicated individuals some of whom I shall name here for the record: Ark Tsisserev, Larry Barker, Andy Sangha, Brian Stegavig, Dave Merrill, Nick LeForte, Dave Clou, Perry Talkkari, Jacquie Cliffe
Perhaps each designer has a unique color preference.
Best, Christopher
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