reasonable monthly rate

Absolutely. I would only recommend this if the equipment is brand-new. Hopefully he can find a local guy to sell him the whole package outright at a fair price for both parties.

Thanks, me-no-do fire though.

On Nov 9, 10:41=A0am, "Christopher Glaeser" wrote:

Hello Chris,

There's not a fixed answer to your question. The cost of "monitoring" is subjective and depends upon what you're getting along with it. There are places on line that will offer monitoring for $5,6,7.00 a month, but, of course, they could be companys that are located half way across the country with no ability to anwser any questions about the operation of your system or would they offer you repair service. Also, there are some companys that will monitor your system from afar and offer you service from a local company. All of this type of service and even monitoring from a different local company depends entirely upon the fact that your system has not been "locked out" by the company who installed your system. You didn't mention what the model number of your Radionics system was, but my limited knowledge of them says that it's locked out and that it requires a special programer to access it. So even if your installer left you with the installers code, it wont do anyone anygood unless they have the required programer to change the central station information in the program.

The term "Monitoring" has become pretty blurred in the last 10 years or so, compliments of the "Free Alarm" companys who have invaded and in my opinion changed this trade for the worse. When people who are dumb enough to think they are getting a "Free" system are told that the "monitoring fee" is only $30.00 a month, for some reason they don't see that they're trapped for the next 3,4,5 years and will pay an exorbitant amount for their system, way beyond what they would have paid for it if they'd payed for the system up front with a lower monthly fee and likely for a shorter period of time. Monthly fees are somewhat determined by the market in the area that you live. In my area, "true" monitoring fees run about $20.00 to $25.00 per month. In other areas, if seen rates of up to $30.00. That's without service calls included. In my opinion, residential alarm service contracts are typically a rip-off for the consumer. If you're aware of how your system works and are conscious about it's use and operation, you wont have many, if any reasons for service calls for a number of years. Obviously, somtimes s...t happens and you need to call someone. Under normal conditions it should be no more than $85.00 ( in my area) for a (no parts) service call. If you add up the service calls over a 10 year period, and compare it to what you'd pay for a service contract, it just doesn't make sense. By the way, any system that keeps working longer than 10 years is gravy. The technology changes sufficiently in that period of time so it's a good idea to consider upgrading after 10 years. But, I've got systems out there that have been working for over

35 years, so, go figure!

Being a small company myself, I'm obviously biased when I say that I think you're better off with a smaller company rather than larger. Smaller companies, of course, can drop out of sight, never to be heard of again, so I should qualify my recommendation by saying a smaller company that's been around for a greater number of years. I think the main thing that I get from my customers is that they know that it's "me" who has responsibility for their systems and not just the next technician that the larger company happens to have in your area. They know that I know their systems and them and that I have proved to them my reliability. Larger companys can't afford to provide that personal, and specialized knowledge about your system.

Finding a "good" company is usually a word of mouth type of search. After so many years in the trade, I don't do one bit of advertising. All of my work comes from word of mouth. Ask around. Ask people that have alarm systems and find out how long they've been with their alarm company and make sure they've had some serious interaction with them. Did they install their system? How do they treat service calls? How quickly does the central respond to alarm reports? Does the company charge for every little thing? What do they charge for service and for the monthly monitoring? And so on.

But..... in spite of all the above information, none of it will do you any good if the company you chooose, doesn't have the ability to get into the programming of your system. You stated that your present company would "erase the chip" but that could mean a couple of things. If they erase the "chip" competely, you wont have use of your system. The "should" only erase the central station reporting part of the program and default the dealer programing code to leave access for the next dealer. Radionics dealers have the reputation of choosing to use Radionics products because they can more easily lock their customers into staying with them due to the difficulty of obtaining access to the system by other dealers. It's not that the product is bad, just the exclusivity of it makes it undesireable for (Nice) dealers who don't want to keep their clients "prisoners" So, even if they leave your system operational, if you want to keep the Radionics system, it will narrow your search for a new company down to only dealers that that the proper programmer. So you may want to consider upgrading your panels and keypads.

Another thing just occured to me. Radionics had a system that allowed the system to be expanded using exapansion modules. These modules could be placed around the home and additional zones wired to them. If that is the case with your system, upgrading your panel could become a little costly because these expansion modules are not compatable with any other systems. Not a lot, but some rewiring would have to be done to make it compatable with a "normal" system. Another thing you can thank your Radionics dealer for.

In my market basic monitoring from a local company for a customer owned system is $21 - $25. Service agreements, cellular, higher level of reporting activity etc can cost more. Open and close reports or access control activity reports typically are the items which will increase the reporting activity substantially enough that a higher rate must be charged.

Low down / no down installs start at about $29.95 a month for a very rudimentary system and go up based on the amount of equipment and level of reporting.

On-line access to systems and central station information may add a $2-$7 a month depending on specific services and if the company you pick offers those services. I have some clients paying around $50 a month per site for open and close reporting, cellular backup, and online access to CS logs and call lists. They paid for their systems at install time. Others I have had with similar service in the past with nothing down on install were contracted as high as $150 a month.

IP reporting or IP backup reporting will add to the upfront equipment cost, but should not add to the monthly cost unless the customer doesn't pay for the equipment.

Service contract will add to cost based on size of the system and actual level of service provided.

Licenses (local alarm permit) and taxes as applicable are not included usually, so bear that in mind if your locale deems it's a taxable telecom service or if you have to get an alarm permit from your city.

As a side note, many small companies will offer a reasonable discount for prepaying annually, but may not prorate a payback if you cancel early in your annual term. We offer 10% for annual prepays on the monitoring portion of the bill if the entire amount is prepaid annually. We offer a prorate payback on early termination (if done properly) based on the monthly non discounted rate and two months of service after receipt of termination notice. (Cellular and other services are offered at a low margin and are not discounted, but they must be paid with the monitoring. Part of the savings is after all billing time and cost.)

Thanks, that's helpful.

Does GSM monitoring typically cost more than phone line monitoring (assuming the homeowner purchases the GSM unit)?

I prefer to pay annually.

Best, Christopher

If you have a Radionics panel like you mentioned earlier I doubt you could reprogram it unless you've got an $800 programmer, even the download software is expensive and requires a hardware dongle.

That depends on what equipment he actually has, if it's an older high- end Radionics panels he will likely have Popits and OctoPopits on all his sensors which ends up being a mess if he does replace the panel.

Hey I think the guy is looking for actual results....(running for cover)

Didn't some big national use Radionics 2000 Series in many of their residential installs? I ran into several and I think they are keypad programmable and have

8 hw zones, and that was how they were setup. I don't even know if they had a popit bus.

Here's a program sheet:

Had to get a feel for you before I could give that. Often somebody will think they are clever and just waste our time looking for the lowest possible monthly rate and then they will wonder why they can't have that low rate and a free alarm and a comprehensive system and good service if there is a problem. Basically those are the people that are too stupid to own an alarm system. Your follow ups indicates you probably are not in that category. If you were in my coverage area I would stop by and give you a quote.

GSM is cellular and uses cellular service. There is a cellular account associated with it and there is a monthly/annual cost so there is an associated charge. If it is a backup in addition to reporting by ordinary phone line it does cost more. However, many people are opting not to have a an ordinary landline telephone. Using a GSM or CDMA alarm cellular communicator for basic monitoring may be cheaper than having a landline. There should also be a telecom tax associated with the cell service, although depending on what they charge the alarm company may absorb it or just add it into the basic charge and charge a little more.

Typically that service will be sold as an add on for around $12.95 - $15.95 a month, but higher reporting like daily auto tests or open and closing reports may drive that up. A trigger only / back up only service might be offered for a dollar or two less, but not much. There isn't much margin in cellular backup service.

That is a good way to go with a responsible local company. You may see some savings depending on their policies.

Protect America did, installed tons of 2112's. Those are keypad programmable and don't use popits however most panels above that do.

2112's were terrible panels, pain to use and went into runaway on low batteries like the old DSC 1550

I checked the panel. It is indeed a D2112 built in 1998.

Best, Christopher

Change it out before someone gets hurt

Agreed.

M.L. -- That's where I saw them, at P-1.

We monitor a bunch of them from Protect America, as I recall Jake mentioned he installed or serviced some of them

Do they have a high rate of failure during fire or other emergency?

Best, Christopher

RHC: I've been following this thread with some interest but figured I'd better keep my mouth shut for fear of insulting people. But I've got to say, it absolutely amazes me that anyone would try to keep a 20 plus year old panel of whatever make in service for any reason. With a wide variety of modern panels available for only a couple of hundred dollars at most, there is no reason that I can fathom why you've want to keep this clunker going. You wouldn't run your business on a 386; you wouldn't continue to watch a 20 year old, black and white, monster sized TV for your home entertainment; you wouldn't rely on a 20 year old car for transportation, but you want to rely on a 20 year old POS panel for your home security !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The price of monitoring is quite another thing. In my area, $15 to $20 a month is quite common with only the large firms quoting more. But regardless, do yourself a major favour and dump this POS old pane l!!

Jeeezeeeee !!!!!

Easy, all I did was ask what's wrong with the Radionics? This home was built eleven years ago and I'm not going to replace something without knowing why. In addition to the Radinonics that was installed when the home was built, I own sevaral other alarm systems including a new Vista 20 and

6150RF that arrived just last week. I haven't even opened the box yet. If the Radionics warrants replacement, I'll have it replaced.

Best, Christopher

They might, they might not - Is it worth it to find out too late?

This is a forum of alarm professionals. Everyone has their own opinions as to what brands are better than others. Sometimes - and this appears to be one of them - there is a bit of agreement on one particular model being poor, despite the fact that there are other Radionics panels that are tanks.

Once in a while, a company tries to make a "consumer friendly" product... ie... inexpensive... ie cheaply built. I don't know for sure if that is the problem with this panel or not.

I came into this industry from the military about 10 yrs ago and, while the company I worked for installed some Radionics (mainly the 7412 &

9412) and I had very few complaints. I never installed a 2112 but other guys I worked with, who had more experience, weren't fans of the 2112 or, in one case, the 6112.

You said you had a new Vista 20. That (IMHO) is a solid panel, relatively diy friendly and communicates in formats that will allow you a wide range of alternatives when it comes to monitoring.

I use the First Alert re-brand of that model in my own home and (you can ask some of the guys who were here 4 yrs ago) I don't take my family's safety lightly.

Get a few alpha-keypads or LCD touch pads and you will be happy with all the features you will have as well as how easy their are to operate.

Heck, I would change just for the exit delay restart and night-stay zones - two features I use in my own home and find them very convenient.

Sticking with the old panel out of stubbornness just because there is not one specific fault common to all 2112's that anyone can point to is just that - stubborn.

RHC: That's the way of the world. Electronics are made in assembly lines, usually offshore, and standards may or may not be the same as they were. Modern techniques also allow companies to provide products at a fraction of the cost of older hardware. Alarm boards and components generally speaking are much better today due to modern design and manufacturing techniques used, and provided they don't die within the first 200 hours of use ("infant mortality"), they'll usually run forever.

Perhaps manufacturers don't back up their products like they used to; however, that's where you as a service company can take up the slack. People will gravitate to a company that backs up their work and products far beyond what the manufacturer will stand by. Customers are dealing with YOU, not a particular manufacturer. If it fails and you have to pick up the cost, at least alarm equipment is relatively low in cost today for you to do so. But the good PR you get in supporting your customer, beyond the limited manufacturers warranty, is well worth over the longer term, the small costs entailed. Alarm equipment is almost "throwaway" in cost today. The "value add" is for you to add on.....too many people forget this is a service business !!

I have bucket loads of older panels I've taken out of service, all of which work perfectly, but they have outlived their useful life. If you're providing a level of professional service, you cant afford to risk failure of the older hardware....you're guaranteed a PO'd customer at some point in time !! I sell the older hardware to other installers who still haven't seen the light.......

RHC: A $30 Elk phone line protective device will fix that problem with any modern panel, and at least you'll have the more modern feature set on today's system to work with

And as I say, if it works, don't fix it!

RHC: Generally speaking, that can be a good idea, unless you are a professional in the business of providing professional protection for people. I'm sure not going to leave a fully working DSC1000 in service for a customer when I know what can happen when the battery goes dead (just one example), rather than change it out for a newer one....

[good stuff deleted]

I appreciate all the information, but where is all this *stubborn* stuff coming from? Someone asked what panel I have, so I checked and posted that it was a 2112. That was Thursday afternoon, less than 48 hours ago. All I did is ask why I should replace it, and now I'm being stubborn? Do you think my panel will last till Monday, or should I call for an emergency install tonight?

Best, Christopher